Im hearing myself yell :(

[melchpeppi]

ARGH! I don't know what to do. I know we have talked about not listening but it seems that nothing I do bar yelling like a maniac gets anything done :(. It is actually at a danger point - she (DD - 4.5yo) wanders off at parks and I had to literally send out a search party not so long ago :(.

I go over our guidelines every day, on the way to wherever we are going and then as we get out of the car - she repeats them and then forgets them and just does whatever she wants.

Its not only when we are out that she does this, she doesn't listen at home either - I ask nicely and explain briefly why things need to be done (usually because she has made the mess to begin with) and she either argues. Tells me to help her (and then doesn't do anything), throws a tantrum or ignores me. She just doesn't do it unless the voice comes out and I HATE IT. I explain to her that I'm getting angry and that I will be yelling soon and she just yells back that she is angry too :sneaky2.

I've had enough of this 'behavior', its been going on for far too long and I feel like Im hitting my head against a brick wall. Its even at the point where one of my friends (who has looked after Lola, taken her to parks and Lola has stayed close, and been safe IYKWIM) cannot believe how she can change when I take her out.

Im no walkover, am I? I didn't think I was :(. I have turned into a screaming lunatic bogan speaking mother who cant get past the anguish of failing to remain calm :(, and it makes me angrier :(.

[Hailstorm]

((HUGS)) hun I know how you feel, you're not alone.
There are a few things that I do with my DD (she will be five in a few weeks) that seem to work.
Is your DD at kinder? there are some days when I pick Haze up from kinder and she is a total *insert crude word of choice here* it's taken me awhile but I find on days like this if I take her aside and sit with her somewhere quiet and ask her if someone upset her at kinder she will usually tell me what happened, it's usually that someone didn't want to sit next to her, or someone threw sand at her etc, we will then talk about how she can deal with it while she's at kinder.

When it comes to tidying up I find giving out small jobs really helpful like say if we are cleaning her room I will ask her to gather all the clothes for e.g and put them on her bed or I'll ask her to pick the books up I will also tell her the job I am going to do.
This also works whem I'm folding laundry and she wants to help.

I also find reaching out and actually touching her, making eye contact, getting down on my knees at eye level and talking to her helps.

We have a rule that she is not allowed to go anywhere where I can't see her.

It's taken a long time but we are at a stage now where her yelling has calmed down ALOT, as has mine.

Six months ago I was exactly where you are now, most days I would give myself the shits from yelling so much.

Oh another thing is when she is about to go into meltdown mode I tell her to take deep breaths and I do it with her this really really works well to calm her down.

I hope some of this has helped hun

(HUGS)

[melchpeppi]

Yeah, it has - I have to anticipate the meltdown.

We just had another one. It just makes me so crazy that she argues and argues with me, and does not back down ever until I scream. And I am willing to let it go of course if it is no biggie but the argument just then was about her wearing a wool jumper today. Its like she just doesn't believe me.

ARRRRGH!

Ok, now to get ready to take her out in public :(.

[Hailstorm]

Oh I totally get you on the not believing you thing Haze and Ben both seem to question my every move.... it's like there is no trust.

Have you looked at her diet? When we stopped having cordial in the house that made a massive difference we also switched to wholemeal bread, it really really made a differcne, to the point where I'm afraid to even give them juice I will water it down liek it's cordial :2lol

[melchpeppi]

I think you just hit the nail on the head. DP has been on a hideous white bread binge and we usually have light rye... Ok, this is looking up now!

Yep - it IS like there is no trust! Its so crazy infuriating!

[Hailstorm]

I'd never even thought anything at all abotu food and behaviour until ?I joined up at parenting forums the difference is amazing, and even better is that the kids have noticed it too, we were at a baby shower a few weeks ago and there were just mountains and mountains of lollies and juice my kids whilst still eating lollies managed to eat the whole fruit platter set out for the adults and no juice I was really proud espesh when every one was commenting on how good it was that my kids were eating fruit :2lol

[michelle_j_r]

Jordy is younger (3+bit) but i find i have no idea how to deal with his deliberate disobedience and destructive behaviour. It's frustrating cos he goes from being incredible sensitive and easy going to a total berko. I don't think it's diet...?? I think i just handle his outbursts badly at the moment..??

hugs to all

[wems]

Yep - it IS like there is no trust! Its so crazy infuriating!

You know it is the complete opposite........She trusts you so much, she feels so loved and supported she is comfortable to test out life herself :)

[Snoozie]

Big hugs! It is a phase please please tell me it's a phase... I was coming to post a similar thread and ask WHAT can I do?! It's so draining being screamed at... I dread going out. We just had a meltdown at the shops. We told her H had to go to the Dr and she was happy yay Dr = stickers but when we got down she completely freaked out and tried to run away. The other day she ran away screaming, tripped over her feet and smashed her head on a wooden clothes display bin. This morning she fell down the stairs.

I'm so tired of the word NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Screamed in my face. The smacking, hitting she does to us is ridiculous. Try to put her in her stroller and she kicks and struggles so you can't put the seat belt on. I have to bribe her to get in the carseat most of the time and then I have to yell for her to keep her straps on! She takes stuff off H all the time and pushes her over. :(

DH gets up me for not going to the shops, doing chores etc but OMG she is so draining! I gear up for a fight the moment I get out of bed and it's so sad because she can be so sweet.

I try not to give her a lot of "bad" foods and we only eat wholemeal/grain bread so I have no clue why this is happening.

Sorry to take over your thread Mel just wanted to say I SO HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

Big hugs - hope you have a good day at Bek's.

Susan xxx

[melchpeppi]

WEMS. You arent allowed to do that. You are not allowed to make me cry. I keep forgetting to look at the opposite of what Im thinking is true - its usually the more accurate description of the moment!

Susan, I know I know - we ended up having a really good time at Beks, and I think its a little tiny because I 'set it up' first.. I warned Lola about the amount of people that would be there and what was expected of her, behavior wise. She did REALLY well! Hugs to you honxxx

Michelle, hugs hugs hugs - it has been this way with Lola since she was Jordys age at least, so I totally understand :(. Its really hard to constantly beat your head against a brick wall :(. I wish I had a magic answer. Umm, we are going to have happy teens? Hopefully?? Hugs!xx

[Snoozie]

hahah DH keeps telling me that if this is what she's like now we're in so much trouble when she hits puberty lol negative ned he is!

glad it went well :)

[wems]

WEMS. You arent allowed to do that. You are not allowed to make me cry. I keep forgetting to look at the opposite of what Im thinking is true - its usually the more accurate description of the moment!Ohhhhhhhhh crapola I didn't want you to cry

I won't go on with any more of what I was going to say then I think you have it sussed now ;)

[melchpeppi]

:kiss

[wems]

Back at ya :)

[Snoozie]

No pregnant ladies in this thread hey? lol

group hug!!

[Rinelle]

You have no idea how glad I am to read this! Not glad that you're dealing with it of course, but glad I'm not the only one. I swear, Ezri will say the opposite of what we say is true, no matter what we say! I've even tested it by telling her the sky is blue, and she will argue with me!

Then at the dentist the other day, we had her screaming and refusing to open her mouth or let him do anything. Took bribery and me holding her on my lap to get the (teny tiny) filling done.

I really really hope it is a phase, because nothing I say or do seems to be helping!

[melchpeppi]

Yep, it is so taxing isn't it :(. I really don't have any answers, I just go from one meltdown to the next *thinking* that I'm learning something but the truth is that usually I am either exploding or just giving up...

How funny that Ezri argued about the colour of the sky!! Well, that proved that she loves to challenge and be challenged. Smart lil tacka.

I really wouldn't have Lola any other way BUT I would love that spiky spirit to be diluted just a little at moments like that....

It does help to know that we aren't the only mamas being challenged by challenging kiddos:unsure :). Sad but true :wink_smile

[Karena]

I have found myself (particularly this year) yelling more at Harry.
In the past few months I've made a real effort not to yell so much. I ask him nicely, if he refuses/ignores, then I go to his level, physically touch him, repeat my request and tell him why I need him to do something. Say it's tidying up, I'll make it relevant to him eg "Harry you need to tidy up your puzzle or Brock will get it and hide a piece and then you can't do the puzzle again". I always make my reason relevant to him, not just because I said so, or because you have to, or because I want you to. It has to mean something to him. He still doesn't do it and something unpleasant does happen, like Brock does get into his puzzle, then I explain the consequence of his actions or lack there of. Next time I guarantee you, when I remind him of what happened before he will do what I asked.

But then other times, yep I just yell and holler and hope to the high power it gets done.

[Rinelle]

I wish reasoning worked on Ezri. But if I tried to tell her something like that, she'd just yell at me that she wanted brock to get into her puzzle. But then, perhaps I need to stop saving her from the consequences a little. It's just so hard, to let something that will upset her happen when I know I could prevent it!

[Karena]

I know T, it's is hard. But I figure Harry has to learn about how I am trying to help him in the first place but if he chooses not to listen then it will have a consequence. I do get the 5 year old yelling at me when Brock does get into the puzzle, but I ignore that and when he has calmed down I talk to him about how he made that choice. This situation has only happened once, so Harry did learn from it and now either packs up his puzzles or does them on the dining room table where Brock can't get them.

I firmly believe in teaching Harry that his actions or inactions have consequences and the choice is up to him. He is learning from them, and most of the time when I explain my reasons, it works. But it's taken a looong time to get to this point.

[Stardust]

I'm much like K here. It does work, though not always. Then Rose gets her stuff, she gets upset and I think 'I told you so' while dealing with two crying kids. Ah the joys! But, have you looked at FAILSAFE? It really does work, if foods are the culprit.

[´*~·Meje·~*`]

Often at this age it can be due to being more independent and wanting to feel more in control of their world. So empowering them is important. I know we need to set rules, to keep them safe, but we can also include them in the decision making process too. ie: you will need to wear a jumper today, would you like to wear this one or this one? I have a very stubborn 5 yr old,and if that is met with argument, I will let him know that he has once chance to make a decision or I will make t for him. If he doesn't make it I will chose one, leave it with him and walk off. Letting him know I will meet him in the car. End of discussion. (sure he will carry on, but I wont get into an argument with him).

I refuse to argue (unless sometimes I get sucked in, in the moment, but then remind myself to snap out of it LOL!). I just simply will not enter into into it if it starts to go down that path. At this age they have not yet reached the age of reason, its all still pure feeling, so its arguing with an irrational person...pointless LOL!

I remember reading somewhere when my first was just a few months old, something along the lines of:

Our children look to us as their pillar of strength, and trust that we will always stand strong. If we start to look a a little unsteady they will give a little push to make sure we are not going to fall over, if we wobble a bit they will push some more to test us again, and more again....until we are steady again and they feel safe to continue their journey, knowing we are holding strong by their side.

It explains very well, why when we can come across wishy washy, and not very clear (ie we are getting sucked into the irrational argument), they push harder....until we snap... which while its not the desired reaction we want to give, it does give a steady, strong boundary for them to feel safe again and they tend to snap out of it and stop pushing :)

The trick for us is finding our strength, so we can provide that clear strong boundary without getting angry.

[Natenimiri]

wow gals i haven't met you but i really resonate with what you are saying. I was only talking about it with another IP mum today. I feel i was where you are at not so long ago. I mean all kids go through the stage of wanting to assert their independence and challenge you to see what happens but some kids do it more than other and for longer. I am reading this book called FIGURING KIDS OUT and she actually says this book is to help us lovingly understand where different kids behavious are coming from and how to LOVINGLY respond to them AND she gives actual practical WORD CHOICES and examples. My Olivia is the "Active Decisive" dominant category (we don't like to label but each of us has dominant behaviours even though we can swap and change). Anyway I will write some more on this but I was just having a quick read before bed and wanted to just say there is hope!
nat x

[Pinky]

Thank you.

been there am there. When I did teacher training I learned all these behaviour techniques.. which mostly worked with kids that I see for 1 hour a week and who I had a much smaller emotional investment in.

my 41/2 year old is wise to the 'limited choice' thing.. I've been doing it with her since she could talk.. "do you want the blue sweater or the red sweater" "I want the yellow dress with the purple tights and I don't want a sweater"...

or she'll say "mummy can I have a cookie or a lollie for my snack" "cookie..oops no.. neither you can have an apple"

Kids are smart.

I completely agree with the "not getting sucked in" but that is just it.. some days I get sucked in.. my rational brain isn't working.. I'm stressed. I'm tired.. I'm not feeling like a useful member of society, I burned the dinner and I've not got to the folding yet.

there are days when I'm not good.. and well all the stuff I know.. goes out the window and I degenerate into a combination of my mother and father (who although were not bad people or parents.. definitely had a different parenting style than what I would like to have) and I kick myself for falling into the trap.. I hear my self yelling or saying something like "how many times do I have to ask you....." and I'm curt and short and I don't like it.

I find that if I sit down and figure out what MY deal is... make some time for myself. give her some space time and love. then come back to the issue with a clear head.. all is better..

we can talk strategy all day.. and some are wonderful.. but unless I can be consistent... and calm, none of them work.. and well there are days when I'd be very embarrassed if someone had the nanny cam on me.

[lindylou]

Mel reading your post- and all of the responses, has just helped me feel sooooo not alone! Thankyou for being so honest- it is refreshing and empowering. Hugs honeyxxxx

I find parenting to be a journey that gives my life total meaning, but at the same time can drive me to my absolute limits emotionally. I have just read a couple of things here that I know are really going to help me be the parent I want to be more of the time! It is a process that is for certain. Thanks IP for the encouragement!!!

[Pinky]

I just read this..
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/punishing-children-with-love/?pagemode=print
and this
http://blogs.babble.com/strollerderby/2009/09/28/the-no-timeouts-guy-explains-how-to-raise-your-kid/

okay so how depressed am I now? all the behaviour management techniques I learned at teacher training are not really designed for my own kids..

school kids can dislike me.. but my own kids? damn it...

my eldest is 4 1/2 ... I think it might be too late I might have already messed her up with my positive behaviour management AKA conditional love.

[Rinelle]

I love the idea, but in practicality, I just can't get it to work. We have had to resort to using a type of time out with DD (sitting her on her bed, and she can come out when she has calmed down) has been the ONLY way we have managed to her to to cooperate at all! I would totally love to find something else that works, but he gives no ways to deal with the unacceptable behaviours (refusing to clean teeth/care for health, hitting or biting people etc etc).

I think your post was very good though Meje, I see that a lot in the way DD reacts to DH, who quite often is ready to fall down at the first sign of pushing...

[MenkyFrog]

I am reading all of this and feeling so heart-sick. I can hear how much everyone wants the best choices and outcomes for their kids and how much you strive and how hard it is.

I cannot recommend Respectful Parents Respectful Kids highly enough. (book) I have done several NVC courses and found them to be invaluable and more recently did one with Jo (who's last name I do not know) and it was wonderful. I am thinking of heading in to this field myself, actually.

The problem is a common problem and the solutions are as easy as they are hard. Listening well to each other not just in times of conflict is really important as is the need to let children live out their natural consequences of most of their actions.

When dealing with a situation, pause just for a second and ask yourself, "what am I parenting for in this moment?" If you don't know then you need to think about it because when you can answer that it is much easier to make good parenting choices.

The positive behavior things really bother me. I guess I went a little down that path when DS1 was a babe but quite quickly changed tack. The point of new information is not to stunt yourself with guilt, it is to help you see there are other choices.

Feeling the need to do or try something different is great and when you are talking about a 5 y/o the best place to start is to sit down and have an honest conversation with them about what you are doing and what you would like to do differently and to seek their input on how that might work.

Parenting shouldn't be something you are doing to your kids, rather something you do with them.

My kids and I come in to our relationship as people, respected and valued. I am therefore not expected to have all the answers because I am just like them - a person who is learning. Everyday my kids and I practice the skills we need to live out the values we believe in.

The thing is, we are here (all of us) asking questions, getting responses and examining how we parent, what the outcomes may be and trying to do the best we can. On some days that will be perfect and on others it just won't be! Parenting isn't ever all learned and wrapped up. You are an individual, dealing with other individuals. Big hugs and don't forget to recognise in yourself what you get right rather than always looking for the bits you get wrong - a bit of positive parenting for parents...

(i really don't like PPP but you know... ;) )

[Rinelle]

I'm really doubtful that sitting down and discussing ways of doing things is going to work with a 5 yo. Not my 5yo anyway. Not trying to disagree, but I would love to have some workable alternitives to positive behaviour management techniques.

I've actually been thinking about this post a lot since yesterday, but I'm still at a loss as to how I could react differently to these situations. For example, today my 5yo DD and I were over helping my sister, who will be moving in a few weeks, pack and clean her appartment. She has a one year old DD, and everything was good for the first hour or two. Then my DD got bored, and wanted to go home. When this happens, her first response is to climb all over me, refuse to play nicely with her cousin (ie, kick her feet around and behave dangerously) in the hopes that it will make me take her home. So I picked her up, sat her on my sister's bed, and said she could join us again when she was prepared to play nicely. Is that removing my love until she behaves? Perhaps it could be seen that way, but I had another baby to consider. Could I have realised she had had enough, and taken her home? Yes, I could have, but my sister needed my help, and there will be other times when I can't just do whatever DD wants at that point. I need to consider the needs and wishes of others, myself included, at times, and DD has to learn to fit in with other people as well.

The other example is teeth cleaning. My DD has had an aversion to teeth cleaning for many years, which resulted in her ending up needing to go under general anisthetic a last year and have many teeth filled. Now, when she is refusing to clean her teeth, she sits on her bed until she's ready to cooperate. I would LOVE to have some other way to get her to clean her teeth, but no amount of explaining or reasoning will work, so this is the only way. Yes, I could leave her to the natural consequences of having bad teeth for the rest of her life, but I don't really believe she can comprehend what that would mean at this age. Obviously she hasn't, as evidenced by the fact that she will still refuse, even after having been through it once.

I would love to have a different way to deal with these situations, but I just can't see one?

[melchpeppi]

I think like every adult, every child is different - and there are different challenges with all of us :). I just have hugs, not much advice here :(

I dont think you are ever retracting your love when you are showing your DD that something cannot be tolerated. Also, if she doesnt learn now that there are things in life that you just have to make the best of (like waiting for you - her carer - to finish what you have planned to do). I think as a parent, part of the loving is showing them that they are a part of the community, a valuable part, but a part nonetheless. Meaning that when others need something (like your time or help) then they need to understand that it is their turn to give. Its a harsh reality but I think that you are being wonderfully sensitive in a difficult situation :).

Hugs and strength :D

[MenkyFrog]

I agree with everything both have said in terms of considering yours needs in a situation - actually that is the starting point for good communication. Sitting and talking does not mean giving the other person (or your child in this instance) what they want over and above everyone else.

I am hearing you say you are concerned that reasoning or asking for their input means not setting up appropriate boundaries or requiring the children to do things they do not want to do. I have seen parents use NVC in ways which completely override the sense of their own needs and parents who focus only on their needs. It is just a tool for communication like every other tool, works better with experiance and through working with others who use it! :) I have just found it to be the most useful tool in my parenting-swiss-army-knife!

I am sensing you are a little frustrated with what I am trying to convey. I am only trying to impart what I have learned through hours and hours of research and training and spending lots of time being held within fabulous communities of wonderful parents, from whom I learn so much.

I would be happy to explain how I would have approached any situation with the backing of NVC if you would like me to and to answer any questions. I am just concerned that you are feeling judged and not supported when this is not my intent and if I have not made this clear, I am regretful. I am wondering if you would like me to explain anything further or if really you are just after a big cyber hug?

P/S I do not think that removing your child from a situation where you see potential danger can be anything other than loving and supporting them.

[Rinelle]

Sorry MenkyFrog, my post wasn't specifically aimed at you, more at the article Pinky posted, LOL. And the frustration comes with really not knowing how to handle my DD some days. I swore black and blue I would not use time out when she was younger, but unfortunately we have found it the only thing that works. We used to try to stay with her when she was upset/raging, but unfortunately that only prolonged the situation, and she either would not, or could not, settle, until she was left on her own. It actually upsets me, because I would far rather be able to comfort her when she is upset/distressed, but unfortunately it just doens't work.

I'm certainly open to hearing more about NVC, I'm always open to new ideas and ways of dealing with a situation. But I don't want to hijack Melchpeppi's thread either. Perhaps we could start a new thread? Or could the mods split these last couple of posts into their own thread maybe?

[´*~·Meje·~*`]

Id like to hear more as well Menky.

It is in line with the OP, so don't really see need to split the thread...unless of course Mel would like it split :)

[melchpeppi]

I dont think you've hijacked at all :). Its all relevant here :)

[Rinelle]

Sounds good to me then!

[melchpeppi]

Bring on the knowledge - Im open for this! :D

The most exciting thing about a difficult time is the learning that comes :)

Menkyfrog, I love what you said about communication. For me, my difficulty is 'giving in' and my lack of wanting to, and our DDs determination (well, seemingly determination) for me to.

Then DD goes ahead and says something like 'YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO MEEEE MUMMMMMY' and I have to admit that no, I'm not listening to her. Even though I have heard and discounted what her contribution is :(.

[Karena]

A lot of what I do is also respecting my children, I try (very hard, sometimes don't succeed) to respect my children's opinions, choices and their decisions. If I can see what will occur because of that decision I voice it but then let Harry make up his own mind. Sometimes it works out for him, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't we sit down and got through why it didn't work out the way he thought. That when he sees "Mummy I think you're idea was right", next time he may still discount my advice but recently I've noticed him taking my advice more and more. Of course if it's a safety issue that Mummy takes over and the answer is no, I explain why, but the answer is still no.

This has been happening for years now, so it just hasn't happened, yep there has been tears, tantrums, and yelling along the way but slowly I can see the results of all my hard work.

Open, honest communication at their level is really important.

[melchpeppi]

:blushing:blushing Yes I see, it is humbling for your 4yo to state that you aren't listening to them but empowering to admit it openly to her:sneaky2 :D. Not immediately though :blushing... of course...

Respect and for the respect to be mutual is paramount for me, thankyou for the hope Karena - Ive felt myself slipping into a bad place and I realize that I need to be mindful at all times of what outcome I dream of

[michelle_j_r]

Jordy is certainly pushing boundaries at the moment and trying to take control (which with our current situation i totally understand) but i am also frustrated and find it hard to explain to him why things are dangerous.

Two days ago he was having a meltdown cos he wanted a biscuit and i was making dinner and i told him dinner would be 15min and he could not have a biscuit. Meltdown started- lots of screaming and hitting, i again told him no and that biscuits would make him sick in the belly (which he understands from pervious experience) and that he could have some banana while he waited or he could sit at the bench and watch me finish cooking. LOTS more screaming, he started kicking the wall, i yelled JORDY, then in a normal tone said "stop it, calm down. Either sit here and watch me or go sit in the loungeroom while i finish." so he stormed off into the loungeroom and came back with a blanket which he threw over the bench and over the gas stove where there were hot pots with liquid and an open flame. I had to grab the blanket, a glass of water was knocked onto the floor= a great big mess. I yelled again cos to be honest it frightened the shit out of me having a blanket on the stove. I said quite forcefully "Don't EVER throw things in the kitchen. Look at the stove! The fire is on and that might burn you and hurt." He started crying and screaming, collapsed in a heap on the floor.... and in the end still refused to eat dinner.

Often when he starts getting angry he'll hit Darcy if he is nearby instead of the wall or bang something on the bench or look for something to throw and i have no clue how to handle it and i honestly often just yell.

At 3yrs i really can't see holding a deep and meaningful with him and i have truely truely explained again and again about him not hitting and not screaming and it's just not sinking in....

i know that my reaction needs to change but at this point unless i get a week alone in the bahamas somewhere i just don't have the reserves to dig into to find this zen place of calm negotiation. ???

ETA- i didn't use to yell. I know why at the moment i am yelling more and it's because i am so freakin worn out! And with a partner i parented better! But my yelling will only make things worse for the boys and then make things worse for me so it will be a bad cycle. So i am keen to find a different way to deal with it short of just walking away...

[Hailstorm]

Often when he starts getting angry he'll hit Darcy if he is nearby instead of the wall or bang something on the bench or look for something to throw and i have no clue how to handle it and i honestly often just yell.

..


Personally I believe picking him up and physically removing him away from Darcy is perfectly aceptable, Darcy needs to be protected and sometimes actions speak louder then words.

I have found deep breaths with my kids really works (and works for me too) I have also started a new thing which is getting Hailey to count backwards from 10 I often have to ask her several times so it goes something like this.
' Hailey I know you're angry/sad/upset/frustrated ATM but I can't help you while you are screaming at me, you need to stop we will count backwards from 10 and thenwe can talk about why you are feeling angry/sad/upset/frustrated 10 9 etc'
I will repeat myself a few times sometimes but sometimes she responds really well and then will tell me what is going on and we will work out a solution together.


One thing we are having major issues is Ben and his 'why?' he responds with 'why?' to EVERYTHING I say, and I mean EVERYTHING things like 'c'mon Ben let's go play outside' 'why?' it seems everything I ask of him is why..... it's driving me insane.....

[lindylou]

I am loving reading this thread...Kyls I have a 'why?' man here too ;) Even when it is inappropriate to respond with why? I think it is a habit partially! Sometimes there are no words...

[melchpeppi]

OMG I would have freaked right out too at the blanket - I think that your response was totally normal. Well, I would have gone ballistic..

I didn't yell so much at Lola when she was little - its definitely since I've had two kids and I'm tired and pretty much 'run the household' (in the freaking traditional sense of the word) and my own business I just get right to the limit in about 10 seconds. That and the best excuse in the world is quite apt here - I'm an Aries... :P (not a good excuse at all, but it can sum up my dominant and fiery nature I guess - its not something Im very proud about :()

I love the 'removal' from the situation thing. There is actually a 2.5yo boy at DDs kindy that insists on bashing up my 18mo DS (like punching in the face, pushing over from behind :angry) - its like he would 'zone in' on him and just go for in for the assault :(. It was infuriating and confronting for me - I've never actually said that 'I dont like that kid' until then :(. I would react to him by talking to him, being gently and saying things to encourage empathy etc until I had just had enough, I removed him and said to him really harshly to 'go somewhere else unless he is going to be kind, Im not your mother and you cannot treat me nor my baby like this'. He looked at me like something clicked and then next time I dropped DD off, he came bounding down the hill exclaiming 'Mummmmyyyyy', and hugged my legs :sad. Anyway, he doesn't lash out at my little guy anymore and just follows us around, which is nice but I've been told about his family and it just saddens me :crying. Anyway - just went off on a tangent there about removal! Sorry :duck

My answer right now to the 'why' is 'just cos' and I really dont like that :unsure

[Karena]

Chelle, that was a safety issue and Jordy needed to understand that it was dangerous. I think you reacted as any other mother would.

I'm always reminding myself now with Brock, that what I start now is going to have affect not tomorrow but in the months years ahead. So you could say I'm building for the future. Brock has started having tantrums, ie: Like jordy not getting a biscuit. When I say no to a bikky because dinner is nearly ready, and he throws himself on the floor crying. I just explain again that he can eat food very soon and ignore the tantrum. Within 30secs he is up off the floor and off playing.

However there are times when he catches me at a weak moment and I give in and give him the bikky. I then have to remind myself that just confusing him when 1 night I say no and the next I give in. I'm finding myself resisting his gorgeous puppy eyes more and more when I have already set the boundaries.

With Harry it is easier because I have been parenting him this way for years so he can better understand. But Brock is only just starting to learn about my parenting.

I also try to remember that my children haven't been here for as long as I have. Harry's only been earthside for 5 years and Brock for only 19 mths, compared to 33 years. So I need to remember that they are still learn and developing and that it's my job to support and guide them. I need to be compassionate and have empathy for the differing emotions that they may be feeling at that time and not know how to deal with them.

Chelle, when Jordy gets really angry like that, could you suggest that he goes hit his bed or pillow, instead of the wall. Go with him and show him how to hit it. That way he is getting his anger out but not hurting Darcy, the house or the wall.

[Madi]

I'm not a big fan of ignoring tantrums..... I feel like a tantrum is a legitimate form of expression of emotion. Their little bodies are so small and their emotions are so big! Ignoring one emotion, such as anger, teaches that that emotion (not the behaviour) is not ok.

I think many parents are so frightened of being permissive that they go too far the other way...... we constantly hear 'be consistent; give in once and they've got you; don't let them win!', and it makes us adversarial towards our children.

I also think about the long term in my actions with my kids - but the long long term. I hope that my kids will be free thinking, confident, have high self esteem. Controlling their behaviour, through overt means or subtle manipulation, is not the way, imo, to achieve that.

Yes, there are certain things which are just not ok, and there are very good reasons for them. But we have to ask ourselves why we are saying no to other things. If we can’t articulate why to our kids, then maybe we shouldn’t say no.

Take the biscuit thing for example. If Hudson asked for a biscuit before dinner, I would have explained that dinner would be ready soon. If he said he still really wanted one, I would have let him have one, or suggested a few other snack type things he could have. Not because I was 'doing anything for peace' or 'letting him win' but because I respect the choice he's made with the food he wants to put in his body. Invariably, he eats more dinner, maybe because it’s stimulated his appetite, maybe because on some level he feels empowered to make his own choices.

(ETA : I also would have though about why he wanted a biscuit - hunger? or did he just need a cuddle and some attention becasue I was busy in the kitchen? )

It is not a bad thing to let a child change your mind. It teaches them negotiation and how to stand up for themselves – skills which can be frustrating in children, but wonderful in adults. In my experience, the more yes’s they hear, the less no’s you hear.

Of course, I only have a four year old and a one year old, and maybe the time will come when I retract some of this. But right now, this is what I do.

[Rinelle]

You know, the more I think about this topic, the more I think we do, mostly, follow these principles. I try to be open to what Ezri wants to do, and if it's not unreasonable, let her do it, or make a compromise. Which is why she's out playing in puddles in the rain, and cutting the hair off her toys (that she paid for).

What happens when things are non-negotiable though? Like cleaning teeth, eating dinner, or safety issues such as not running into the middle of the road etc?

And more grey area, what about when what the child wants to do infringes on what you want to do? Ie, a child (like mine), who thinks mummy and/or daddy should be playing with her every second of the day? Or who sits down and says they don't want to go out (every single trip)?

[melchpeppi]

Non-negotiables for us here are just because. DP has had to hold DDs head before while we clean her teeth (with her screaming) but after we are done, we say 'it would just be easier if you did it yourself and then you wouldnt have to be held' etc. I just asked her then why she cleans her teeth and she said 'because they get dirty'. Simple as that! So maybe starting an evening routine-ish thing where Ezri puts her dirty clothes in the washing basket, jumps in the bath to wash the day away and then brushes her day off her teeth? Is it the logic and reason why she has to do it what is holding her back? I've got to admit that it was HORRIBLE teaching Lola how important teeth cleaning was, I am by no means any kind of expert at this :(.

We sometimes try to make fun of the task by having a race, or who can brush the loudest etc.. You've probably already tried this stuff :(.

The hard thing is when they need to be around you, playing with you etc all the time is that they might be bored on their own? I think that Lola finds it easier now that we have the cat (that is hers) and her little brother is now old enough to play with. Its so hard isn't it.. I think you probably have already looked at the montessori/steiner stuff (like when they do what you are doing etc etc)... And when we are out and Lola wants to leave (and is really vocal about it) I will calmly say 'I think that is a little bit rude and it is hard to be patient, we will be finished here when xxxx happens' (when the clock says three, when my phone alarm goes off etc etc)

[Rinelle]

Thanks Mel. We mostly have the teeth cleaning solved these days, but the only way we could do it was that DD sat on her bed until she agreed to clean her teeth. After 12 months of fighting her over it, this was the only thing that worked. We rarely have to do this anymore, but on the odd occasion that she starts objecting, she sits on her bed. It was particularly difficult, as I think her problem with it is an extreme dislike of the feeling of the toothbrush, especially with toothpaste on, in her mouth.

DD is pretty good while we're actually out shopping, the problems usually occur when we either say it's time to go somewhere, or we're at my mum's or sisters. These days I say "Well I'm going," and walk out to the car, and she will come crying after me. I don't particularly like that way of doing it, but nothing else works. No amount of rational explaining that we need to go to the shops because we need food works. Bribery will, but I don't really like doing that either, especially not for EVERY shopping trip.

[melchpeppi]

Oh yeah, bribery DOES work doesnt it?! I dont like it either! Im glad that she has the teeth thing down, I think that the feeling of the toothbrush is yucky, even now :). I totally get that :).

I got to the stage where I just wouldn't take Lola shopping - I remember it was so hard and stressful that I couldn't cope and it was easier for me to go out at night on my own and do it.

Its nice that Ezri loves her nan and aunty so much that she wants to stay! Are they local to you? I would love to have that kind of relationship with family :).

[Rinelle]

LOL. No, actually, she wants to go home! She doesn't mind visiting for a short while some days, but she gets bored long before I do. My mum lives 5 minutes up the road, and my sister is about 45 minutes away, but is often visiting my mum as well. I love having my family close, and would spend far more time with them if Ezri didn't get bored so quickly!

[melchpeppi]

hahhaha - oops! Sorry I got it around the wrong way *blush*. I wonder what she would like to do while she is there that would keep her entertained while she is there? Does she have a little sandpit or anything there?

[MenkyFrog]

I agree with a lot of the stuff Madi said.

Actually in NVC you can physically intervene. It is called the "protective use of force". Basically it means that you can intervene in a situation if there is immediate threat of danger. In the case of a child running out on at a road, throwing a blanket onto the stove or hitting or kicking another child, removing the child from the danger is paramount.

You can also yell ("in giraffe") which basically means still using appropriate language but yelling, stating your emotions and your needs and giving a clear request. One of the things I find most difficult is coming up with a request. I find I have a lot of things I don't want and am not too clear about what I do want. On top of that one of the keys is ensuring that your request is an actual request.

I found particularly when first starting NVC, I would say I am really frustrated (frustrated and angry seem to be my 'favored' emotional states) because I need cooperation. Would you guys be willing to help me out? and then they would say no and I would cajole them into saying yes. This was therefore not a true request.

If you don't mind I will go back to some of your examples and explain how I would handle them.

Packing at sisters - I would have started out by talking in the morning and saying we are going to be packing at sister's today. I am going to be very busy there and doing XXX and there might not be too many things there for you to do so would you like to go and pack your own bag of special things that you could play with/help with? Your cousin is going to be there and he is only little so I am wondering if you could think of any things you could do to play with him so that auntie XXX and I can get all of our work done? Is there anything else you can think of that we might need today? Then when he starts to get bored pay him 2 minutes of attention. "I can see you are really struggling at the moment here are some jobs you could help out with or can you think of any jobs to help with?" If no then try "I am just going to finish XXX (don't let it take longer than a couple of minutes so that he can succeed at waiting) and when I am done maybe we could have a snack/play for two minutes and I will help you find something to do" Giving small genuinely useful tasks is the key to engaging a child to help out. Sometimes they are going to have to do stuff because they just do but ensuring you do everything you can to make it a manageable experience for both of you is really important. Recognise that kids are going to get bored and put things in place to help them cope. Get him to write/draw on packing boxes to 'label' them, get cups out ready for a tea break, pack soft toys into a box etc. Kids need a sense that they can have a valued contribution to a situation.

Sometimes you don't have the opportunity to set the scene very well but being mindful that spending 2 minutes paying attention at the start of a melt-down may save you a half hour of dealing with a rage is always useful.

With the biscuit/dinner thing I would have invited my kids to help cook. Really making sure that they know you understand them is important too "I can see you really really want a biscuit. It is really not okay for you to have one right now. I am sorry you are disappointed and I can see you are hungry,you can have some fruit and what about you help me with dinner so it gets on the table faster" Also when you say 15minutes to a child, quite often they won't have a clear idea of what that means to them. Maybe guessing, "are you worried that 15 minutes is a long time?" - here is a clock and I want you to mark out the time.

It isn't going to stop every rage in its track but it is sure going to help - even talking afterwards to not have it happen again!

Quite often the benefit of talking more openly about what is going on for the child is that you will find that their understanding of what you said is inaccurate. Things that you think they understand they really don't and I know with my kids what they put forward as being upset about may not always be the real underlying issue.

I had a big talk with DS1 (nearly 9) this morning because he accidentally stepped on DS2's foot and wouldn't appologise because "it wasn't his fault". After a little bit of talking we finally got around to how much he is hurting over the quasi separation that is going on between DH and I. I know I get cranky with the kids sometimes and it is because I haven't let something else go and they are the same!

Sorry for my long and rambling post. Happy to answer any questions - again need tea.... :)There is so much more I would love to share....

[Rinelle]

I don't know. I do agree with a lot of the principles of NVC (I read the first chapter of the book you mentioned Menky, on Google Books), but I really still struggle with how to make it work.

Ezri is VERY difficult to reason with. As mentioned previously, she will argue black and blue that the sky IS NOT blue if I so much as hint that it might be. When she has a tantrum, it usually denegrates into kicking and screaming quite quickly, often starting without any warning at all, it's like a switch has been flicked. Once she has gone into tantrum, there is no way to discuss anything with her, as she will simply scream that it is not true etc etc.

She knew what was happening with the trip to my sisters, and though we did not take her own toys, her cousin has plenty of toys that Ezri is happy (excited even) to play with. She had eaten, and I had been actually sitting with her and her cousin watching them for a large portion of the day. I had left to help my mum scrub the bathroom, and my sister was with Ezri and her daughter.

I admit, it was not a good day, as we had several people in a very small apartment, and my sister was quite stressed about getting the cleaning/packing done, but short of sitting and playing with Ezri the entire time, I'm not sure if the issue could have been averted. She seems to need such a high level of attention that it seems nearly impossible for me to fill it, and yes, I end up getting so frustrated I yell at her just to get a bit of peace.

Funnily enough, 10 minutes later, when I said it was time to go home (baby needed a nap), she screamed that she didn't want to go home!

I definately agree with what you said, about the presenting issue not being the real issue! I see that quite a bit, but Ezri seems unable to verbalise the real issue, and even if I suggest what I think it might be, she will get quite angry, and insist that what she has said (often something quite silly, like saying that I shouldn't have bought her a toy that she has been playing happily with all afternoon) is the real reason. How can I get to the real reason if she will not accept/discuss it in any way? I don't know if this is her age (5), and she will be able to articulate more as she gets older, of if it is something specific to her.

Sorry if I seem argumentative. I just often struggle with how to apply the methods to my specific situation, and often think it would be much easier if people could actually see us and how we interact. Many of the things I try often seem to get me nowhere, and I don't know if it is the way I'm saying/doing them, or something else.

For example, I bought a book of bedtime mediations/visualisations, as Ezri often has trouble realxing at night time. We read it the first night, and she LOVED it, the second night she wasn't so keen, and every night since when I have mentioned it, she angrily says she doesn't like them. I don't know if she is cranky that they were helping her relax, and thus go to sleep when she wanted to keep playing, or what? It's like she deliberately dislikes anything that I like or try to encourate her to do! It gets so frustrating, and I often feel like there is no point in even trying, as pretty much everything I try gets yelled at or refused.

(And, of course, I'm hormonal, so everything seems 10 times worse than it usually does right now, so that's my disclaimer.)

[Karena]

((((((hugs)))))))))) T, you have often mentioned your challenges with Ezri, and you're right sometimes it would be better if someone could observe just you and your child together and provide suggestions. I use to do this in a former life, but the families I visited with, were part of a wide community welfare organisation.

I love the theory of behaviour guidance (weird I know, but having studied it for years, it's hard to get out of the habit), and all the theory in the world sounds great, but for a lot us putting it into practice 24/7 is very very difficult. We've had a bad day, the chn have had a bad day, it's been raining for 2 weeks, mum's tired, dad's been working a lot etc, etc. I use to tell parents that is they found something that worked stick with it. If they wanted to change a behaviour it's not important that is happens every single time, but that it starts to happen more and more until that behaviour is a habit and comes naturally.

I honestly believe that wanting to change the way you interact with your chn, researching what may work for your family and working on that is the most important thing. Just thinking about it and not doing anything doesn't help anyone.

Threads like this are great as they get people thinking, asking questions and hopefully getting support. :)

[Rinelle]

Thanks Karena. *hugs back*

I really wish there were more places where people could observe and offer suggestions on parenting. Unfortunately there are none that I have found that consider anything but the usual practices, ie, to change behaviour, use time out. We actually took Ezri to see a psychologist at one point because she was getting quite violent, and we had no idea how to deal with it, and all she suggested was time out, and asked if we had a room where we could close/lock the door.

This thread certainly has me thinking and evaluating the way I'm parenting, even if I don't quite see how to make use of it yet. It's a very interesting discussion.

[melchpeppi]

Yes, it is very interesting!!

Hugs - Ezri sounds to me like she is very spirited, and it is hard to find a way for her to channel that spirit, or for her to even cope with it. Mega mega hugs. I wish I had the magic answer

[Rinelle]

Yes, I think she needs more activity, but it's quite hard when it is so hot outside. I think we might have to invest in a trampolie, after hearing (was it this thread, or one of the others?) about a couple of kids who work off steam by bouncing on the trampoline. I've kind of been avoiding it because my mum is paranoid about them, and freaks if I ever mention them, LOL.

I find it so frustrating that she won't listen to me. She's been watching these documentaries (docufiction actually, documenary with a fictional storyline woven in) about a man who goes back in time to collect extinct animals for his 'Prehistoric Park'. Anyway, one episode about mamoths freezes half way through, and after watching it, she wanted 'the other one about mamoth's'. Guessing what she wanted, the next one mentions the mamoths, and what happened to them, and I told her that, but she insisted over and over again that that wasn't it, and the mamoths weren't even mentioned in the next episode. How do you help a child who deny's everything you say?

I tried to work through it, and reason with her, and she did calm down and watch it after a while, but it seems like we have to go through this every time! ARGH.

[Karena]

She's been watching these documentaries (docufiction actually, documenary with a fictional storyline woven in) about a man who goes back in time to collect extinct animals for his 'Prehistoric Park'

Harry loved these when they were on TV, what's it called again, can't remember. Sorry ot

[melchpeppi]

Yep, Im hearing you - when I feel exasperated and like Lola just doesnt believe me I just say 'well, Im sure that Im right and if you give it a chance you might see' and walk away. However she and Ezri sound like they are quite different in nature so its hard to advise (also, of course your point earlier is completely valid re: not actually witnessing the relationship).

You wont know yourself if you get a tramp - we have a 8ft netted round one and it ROCKS - both of the kids spend at least an hour each in there a day, and take balls in there - the big exercise ball - and actually just relax, bounce around and play! The most dangerous part of it is the ladder, and Taj negotiates it with ease at 18mo. You can get springfree ones too, which look awesome. We just didnt have the funds for one of those when we bought ours (brand new, off ebay for less than $200!)

[Rinelle]

Karena, they're called Prehistoric Park. There are 6 episodes, but we only have the first four. I think they're by BBC. She's SO into documentaries lately, we've been watching almost nothing else. Trouble is, I can't keep up with all her dinosaur knowledge, LOL.

Mel, guess I'll have to put one on the Christmas list.

[melchpeppi]

We are local to eachother, if you like you can come over and test out our trampy to see if she likes it :)

[Rinelle]

We are? I didn't realise. :) I know she'd love one though, she's played on one at a friend's before. It's just me and my (or maybe my mum's) paranoia that has stopped us buying one up until now.

[melchpeppi]

Umm, oops, I got confused - Im near Ipswich, and Jasper is local here to me *how embarrassment*

But you can come over if ya want :P. Don't be paranoid, especially if you get the padded, netted type - they are really fabbbbbbo :). Overcome the paranoia!!!!

[MenkyFrog]

I am actually just down the road too on the outskirts of bris just off the Ipswich motorway...we should have a meet - not sure where to post that.

Hugs honey. It is so so hard. I also think that you should give your self a break! Everyone parents (actually does everything) better on a full-tank but really not everyone has one all the time! You can't expect perfection from yourself or your kids and you will send yourself crazy trying. You just have to do the best you can do at the time and trust that that will be enough. You love your kid/s, your are striving to be the best parent you can be and they are striving to be the best person they can be and sometimes things will go swimmingly and other times it won't but if you love your kids then in all likelyhood they will grow into fantastic adults - which I think is the whole point!

I am setting myself up to be the fly-on-the-parenting-wall but do not have all of the courses completed I would like to yet. I have a grand plan for in home visits and eventually a parenting centre and I can't wait - shouldn't be long now!!

I really think that we all as primary carers, need to be a bit kinder to ourselves and recognise that what we do is incredibly difficult work with no fixed objectives or outcomes and little or no gratitude. Try to remember all of the best things about your day and the bits that went well rather than beating yourself up about the 5minutes that went to poo because I haven't had a day yet without the 5minutes (or sometimes hours) of poo!

[Rinelle]

LOL. I'm working on it.

Oops, posted at the same time Menky.

I'm getting there, most days. We've had a lovely morning so far (aside from the above mentioned minor meltdowns), Ezri has been playing by herself, swinging by herself, and generally being very cooperative. I think maybe I need to just let go sometimes. :)

[lindylou]

This thread is so interesting :D Please keep sharing your insight everyone!


You just have to do the best you can do at the time and trust that that will be enough. You love your kid/s, your are striving to be the best parent you can be and they are striving to be the best person they can be and sometimes things will go swimmingly and other times it won't but if you love your kids then in all likelyhood they will grow into fantastic adults - which I think is the whole point!

Such a great paragraph!! When you think about it, the fact that we are all here worrying about and discussing this stuff says alot. We need to enjoy our parenting journey in order to parent well (I mean overall, not all the time)...and maybe for this to happen we need to accept that to be 'perfect' (whatever that is in our minds) is probably not realistic or 'normal'.

[melchpeppi]

I love that paragraph too - I would love to meet you IRL Menkyfrog, I like the way you think :).

True Linds - it does show a little at least that we are challenging ourselves over our little challengers' behavior:yes

[michelle_j_r]

With the biscuit/dinner thing I would have invited my kids to help cook. Really making sure that they know you understand them is important too "I can see you really really want a biscuit. It is really not okay for you to have one right now. I am sorry you are disappointed and I can see you are hungry,you can have some fruit and what about you help me with dinner so it gets on the table faster" Also when you say 15minutes to a child, quite often they won't have a clear idea of what that means to them. Maybe guessing, "are you worried that 15 minutes is a long time?" - here is a clock and I want you to mark out the time. offering fruit and for him to sit with me while i cooked WAS what i did. And he knows 15min is what we say when it's not a long time but it's a waiting time. He understands certain time units as we use them often.
So i explained why he could not have what he wanted, i offered an alternative, i offered him a choice of things that he could select from so he had some control over what he did... and he still screamed and kicked... ???

i like the IDEA of NVC but i have to say that i can see a lot of real life situations where kids are too complex for it to work. And, thinking of my 18month old at the moment, some kids are bloody high spirited!

Rinelle, i know you have worked for ages on ways to better understand and work with Ezri. Hugs! It must feel like a long journey sometimes.

[Rinelle]

*hugs* to you too Michelle, thanks.

Have you considered that some of your boys behaviour right now might be due to your recent seperation? Even if they can't vocalise it, perhaps it is upsetting them, and causing them to be more upset by minor frustrations than they might normally be? Not sure if there is much you can do about it, but it might be worth considering as a possibility.

I can be really hard at dinner time, when you are focusing on trying to get food on the table. We frequently have dinner time altercations here, especially when dinner is later than usual (which is all too common unfortunately, especially when I'm here typing instead of getting it... oops...)

[michelle_j_r]

i am very aware of them missing family and wanting their Dad etc and try to really keep an eye on that and get Jordy to talk about how he feels a lot etc... but overall i don't think their behaviour is all that much out of the ordinary for kids trying to assert their independance. Perhaps a little more frustration and need for control than if they were in a more stable situation but...?????

I am actually hating my own reaction though and i KNOW that that is totally due to the separation becuase i just don't seem to have whatever it was that i had to draw on before. And i think my reaction is making things worse... but for now being able to talk about it like this helps me to accept that i won't always feel this way and i will parent the way i want to again as soon i am able to build myself up again. But any ideas for better ways to handle things are always welcome!!!

[MenkyFrog]

I am in the exact same position having some weird sort of un-separation/separation at the moment and the kids are really struggling. Some days more than others. I guess part of the reason we have separated was because I was already doing everything myself so it wasn't such a big leap for me but it has been for my kids. TBH I find it easier with the exception of having to watch the lack of security, sorrow and uncertainty that the kids are going through...whole other thread....

By the way, you will build yourself up again and it does get easier and you can only ever do what you can do

[Rinelle]

We all have our good days and bad days Michelle. I'm sure you're struggling as much as the kids are, and I'm just as sure that the three of you will find your way to a new normal soon. *hugs*

[Pinky]

MenkyFrog.... I like what you have to say.. don't be surprised if a VERY big post comes your way....

R - I'm sorry about that link.. it depressed the hell out of me too...

Sometimes I think I have it kind of figured out then other times I think OMG what have I done to my 4 1/2 year old?

[Bron]

I haven't read the posts but here's my 2c.

I used to yell a lot and still do sometimes (I am my father's daughter and he taught the lesson well), but I've found that talking and explaining is more likely to get the desired result :)

[Snoozie]

Big hugs... I'm not yelling today


(kids are at daycare!) LOLOL

[Rinelle]

That's OK Pinky. It did depress me a little too, but it has given me a lot to think about, and I think has helped my parenting a little overall, so it's all good.

[Natenimiri]

Hey mel
thanks for being brave and sharing what so many of us are feeling.
I have been following but just felt it was so complex i didn't know where to start!
We do our best and must forgive ourselves when we are tested and act like human beings! talking helps - and being aware is the first step.
I still think understanding our individual kids and where they come from - star signs, behaviour tendancies / personalities - really helps us understand them and individualise our approach to them. I found the book FIGURING KIDS OUT really helped me (I have mentioned it in a few different threads where kids behaviour has come up). It's not the be-all of solutions but it helped me understand my challenging youngun and gave me some good word choices.
Things work for a while then i go searching for another idea!
nat :-)

[kateking]

Having gone through the same thing I really understand your despair about this. The only thing that helped get my DS1 and I out of this rut was humour. I used humour & fun for everything, messes, not listening etc. It didn't work straight away but over weeks, he started to have a little fun back and then would do what he was asked. It eased the tension of the moments and the conflict and allowed us to reconnect in a positive way. It was a long slow healing for both of us and taught me probably more than it taught DS. We weren't connecting other than through anger for what seemed an age but a shift in attitude from me allowed him to shift too. But I had to lead the way. One more thing... remember when your DD was a little toddler that when she made a mess or ran away you probably chased her with a giggle or acted mock surprise at the mess. Go back to that... show her fun loving mummy again :)

[Bron]

i've been using the count to 3 method (not liking it but much preferring it to the yells, threats etc) and just now josie yelled at me "O-Kay!" :lol

[kateking]

Just wanted to add a PS to my post about humour, it doesn't work mid freak out melt down! However it did work sometimes and saved me yelling and then feeling riddled with guilt!