Bullying - Retaliation

[Kali]

Dh and I are disagreeing about this so I thought I would ask you lot.

DS1 (7years old) has endured a bully at school for the last 2 years. He/We have tried everything:
* Asking him nicely to stop
* Telling him "Stop it! I don't like it!" assertively
* Ignoring him
* Playing along with him
* Speaking to his parents, who tell me his is G & T and will stop the behaviour when he is challenged more at school.
* Speaking to the teachers. They all know the situation and are pretty good at sorting it out in favour of my son. This kid has had so many detentions it is not funny.
* DS has been very verbally rude to the boy saying "I don't like you! Leave me alone!"
* He has walked over to the teacher on duty as soon as Bully come near him.
and the list goes on.

On Friday, bully came up and pushed DS over and pushed his head into the sand and stood on him. DS got up and threw sand at him. He was enraged and over it and just wanted it to stop. My opinion, after two years, who can blame him. I would do the same and I told DS not to be ashamed (he was when retelling it to me) He did the right thing, but my DH disagrees. He thinks DS should never retaliate.

What do you think? Is there a point where retaliation is necessary to make a bully stop?
I want to have a chat to my son and tell him that if he is going to retaliate then he should make sure it hurts enough for the lesson to be learnt.

Or am I way out of line?

[Rinelle]

I think it's not on to expect a child to put up with that sort of behaviour without some sort of retaliation. Not sure if it will make the bully stop, but I think it's self defence at that point, and acceptable in the heat of the situation. I'm not sure though, that I would go to the point of saying that it should hurt enough for the bully to learn a lesson, that sounds too planned for me. But then, it sounds like you've tried everything else, so I'm not sure what else you can do?

[Kali]

That is exactly how I feel at this point. Dh just said that he is unsure where the retaliation stops though as Columbine and other school shooting were a form of retaliation too.

I get what you mean about it sounding planned, but I think in the heat of the moment he can pause long enough to make it hurt a little more. My thoughts are that if he is going to get into trouble for throwing sand then he might as well get into trouble knowing that it hit the target (bullies eyes) and was worth getting into trouble for. I feel a bit gutted knowing that he had to 'walk with the teacher' and the sand went no where near the bully.

Maybe I shouldn't be calling it retaliation but 'self defence' instead.

[jodiemiller]

If he was attacked on the street, wouldn't you want him to fight back? How is this any different? The lesson for L is to know the boundary where his mortality is threatened, ie, it becomes a case of self-defense. Sounds like L was more than provoked. I'm totally in your camp S.

[GreenGully]

I think that it was a totally reasonable reaction to provocation. If it was my son I'd be sympathetic with my son but also be clear that violence isn't really an ok solution, even though the impulse was totally understandable. In self defence, yes, but not in retaliation. How utterly frustrating for your son (and you!) that the bullying continues even with the school aware of it :(

[boy wrangler]

First of all, not knowing any more about the situation that you've just said, I can't believe that it's been going on for 2 years and the school knows about it and haven't truly done anything! That is terrible and I'd be asking them to be taking things more seriously, especially now that your DS is retaliating/using physical self defense instead of words.

I think what your DS did was reasonable given the circumstances but (as I'm sure you know, working in schools) what the teacher did was also reasonable. I'd hope that s/he made it clear to the bully that the only reason your DS threw sand was because of what he'd done and that he provoked the throwing. I also hope that there was more severe punishment for the bully.

I'm not sure what you should say to DS in terms of how far to take it or whether he should make it hurt or whatever. The mother in me says I 100% agree with you. The teacher in me says self-defense in terms of personal safety and getting away is ok, but retaliation in terms of making sure the bully learns his lesson and gets hurt is not.

Gees S, talk about a tricky one!

[Phoenix]

I'm not sure what you should say to DS in terms of how far to take it or whether he should make it hurt or whatever. The mother in me says I 100% agree with you. The teacher in me says self-defense in terms of personal safety and getting away is ok, but retaliation in terms of making sure the bully learns his lesson and gets hurt is not.
I agree. I think it is totally valid in regards of sticking up for himself but I am not sure that making it as hurtful as possible is the best decision.

[jodiemiller]

I've come back to say - seek mediation with the bully's family. They obviously don't understand your situation. Perhaps you also could be informed by having a more in-depth meeting with them. The school should have some sort of protocol for dealing with this. Ours does, and this sounds like the time to escalate matters.

[kateking]

I have had to think a lot about this lately and I think to tell a child to stop protecting himself after repeated attacks is telling him to bury the most basic instinct, namely survival. I also think as well as being unrealistic it is dangerous. What if they need to protect themselves one day? If we teach them to bury all resonable response they will be victims. (I wonder especially with well known child abduction cases in the media etc What if the victim had been able to physically reject the abductor or had not been afraid to look after themselves, been more aggressive? Would they still be alive?...Are we raising children that are so suppressed they won't even object when others hurt them?...Just a thought) Let's face it your DS has put up with 2 Years of crap that adults have not solved, despite repeated calls for assistance!! I think anyone would draw a line in the sand (unintentional pun). Geez he's on the front line putting up with this rubbish every day for 2 years?!!!. He doesn't have to really hurt the guy just not be such an easy target. The bully will move onto easier prey, (law of the jungle and all that.) "Stop it I don't like it" who ever invented that lame, meaningless, inauthentic, triple PPP, poncy line... It works for 2 year olds not beyond...enough said. Guess you understand my feelings now LOL.

[Kali]

that the bullying continues even with the school aware of it :(


First of all, not knowing any more about the situation that you've just said, I can't believe that it's been going on for 2 years and the school knows about it and haven't truly done anything! That is terrible and I'd be asking them to be taking things more seriously, especially now that your DS is retaliating/using physical self defense instead of words.



I am happy with how the school has treated it so far. They have done all they can (which I didn't go into because I didn't want to make it too long) but this kid has his dad permission "because he is bored at school because he is G & T" So any talks the school has had with the parents has been thrown back onto the school, which is bullshit. The kid is normal but his mummy and daddy want to believe he is special. *catch the fed up with excuses from lame arse parents tone* :2lol As a teacher, I do understand that there is only so much the school can do. L was in trouble with a TA until a teacher who knew the situation found out and then he wasn't in trouble for his 'self defence' and bully has a detention.

Further talking with DH today and we think we are going to take it to the new principal to up the anti a bit more. He seems quick to suspend so I am hoping that another incident like this will lead to that which would send a real message home to the parents.

We had another talk to DS tonight and made it clear that we don't want him lashing out in self defence all time with anyone, but that this particular situation was different because we had tried lots of other things.

It is tricky!

[Kali]

Everyone posted at the same time, so I am just catching up with some of the later posts.



He doesn't have to really hurt the guy just not be such an easy target.


That is exactly what I am thinking. Thanks for putting it so easily. If he is going to throw sand, make it hurt, so this kid thinks about it before he attacks him again.

Another mum and I were talking about this today. I said that I thought there was only one person who could sort this out and it was DS. The adults have tried but this kid just won't quit. DS has to make him think twice before he attacks him.

[boy wrangler]

As a teacher, I do understand that there is only so much the school can do.

I disagree, the school should be protecting your son. End of story. If this has been going on for 2 years and the teachers know about it they should be doing something to protect your son (and other children). Are they still in the same class? If they are I'd be asking why. If they're not and the incidents are happening on the playground I'd be asking what the school are doing/are willing to do to protect children from this child. He needs to be withdrawn from the playground. As the LST I would work with the guidance cousellor and TA's and run 'playgroups' or whatever for kids that couldn't function in the playground. They'd spend their lunchtimes in small groups, learning cooperative rules and the TA or I would be right there to help them work through their issues be it physical, emotional, anger management etc. It taught them valuable skills and would protect the greater school population. We did, however, have lots of these kids. I'm not sure how many candidates there would be at your school!

I would definitely be speaking to the principal tomorrow, if you can't get there in person send him an email. In fact, send him an email and then say in the email that you intend to make a time to see him. Put everything in writing, say that this has gone on for too long and that today, with the escalation in L's behaviour, is the final straw.

Right, not sure that actually said anything, but I think going to the school ASAP is important! :)

[Rinelle]

I disagree with the idea that the only person who can solve it is your DS. He shouldn't be in a postion of having to solve it IMHO. If other children are not safe around this child, he should be suspended. End of story. I'm tired of this whole line of schools not being able to do anything. Children who are hurting other children should not be allowed to continue doing it. It's one of the reasons my child isn't in school, because apparently the schools cannot ensure her safety.

[Kali]

OK settle down everyone! I really did not want to post this for fear that this would become a thread about exactly what it is now. I am NOT going to blame the school. The school has done a lot. They have done everything on your list BW. The kid is resistant to any help. DS is NOT in the same class as this boy for this very reason. The school made sure of that last year! The staff at the school do watch out for this boy, but they simply can't be everywhere all time the kid is a cunning little shit!

BW I am surprised that you think there is more the school can do and that you think I might not have pushed them to do it. We are quite similar on this topic.

I am not interested in discussing the schools role in this any further than I have. I won't let this thread be turned into a school hate thread like other threads have in the past. I want the fact that I choose to send my children to a mainstream school respected. I love this school and I trust this school. I will speak to the deputy tomorrow and try to escalate things.

[Kali]

and KateKing, I loved everything you wrote. It really resonated with me. I think we can protect our children so much that they don't learn to defend themselves effectively and I think that can be dangerous.

[boy wrangler]

I, in no way, am bashing the school or the school system. I'm just saying that they are responsible for protecting the children in their care. Yes, I know teachers can't be everywhere and do everything for everyone, but if there are ongoing issues then it is their duty to do whatever it takes. Maybe they (teachers, GC, LST, Principal, whoever) needs to have a real chat with the kids parents and just call them on the fact that it's nothing to do with G&T and it's not an acceptable excuse. Maybe something stronger than detention needs to happen for them to realise the severity of the situation.

I agree, I think we do have very similar thoughts on this and I'm not implying that you haven't approached the school before this. I just have my teacher hat on and am throwing out all the things that are popping into my mind.

[Kali]

Maybe they (teachers, GC, LST, Principal, whoever) needs to have a real chat with the kids parents and just call them on the fact that it's nothing to do with G&T and it's not an acceptable excuse. Maybe something stronger than detention needs to happen for them to realise the severity of the situation.




We really do think alike, because that is my exact plan for tomorrow.

[boy wrangler]

Sounds like a good plan to me ;)

[Rinelle]

Sorry S, if it was my post that made you feel like that, it wasn't my intention at all. I just get way too emotional about this as a result of having experienced it as a child. I'm really sad that your DS is having to deal with this.

I agree with what BW said, and that things need to be escalated. Perhaps even tell them that you're feeling like you need to teach your DS self defence to protect himself?

[lucylu]

Kali, I don't have sons so can't really comment about what I'd do... but I can totally understand your approach.

Big hugs xx

[Pinky]

I completely agree with you and disagree with your DH. Self defense is important. I have told my own daughter at age 5 that if she felt threatened and needed to defend herself I was behind her 100%. Even if the teacher got angry with her or if she got sent to the office. I told her.. if someone hurts you or tries to hurt you and you can't get away then you can defend yourself and I'll be behind you 100%.

Luckily for me DH and I are on the same page with it. If the school hasn't fixed it in two years, I think your boy has every right to defend himself.

[Kali]

I went and had an appointment with the deputy and she is investigating it today. I explained that L is ready to defend himself and that I don't mind if he does and gets into trouble for it. She agrees that the help the school is providing needs escalation but will decide how after talking to a few people including special needs to see if this kid needs more social skills programs. I spoke to another mum whose son is besties with my son and her sons story correlates with his. I spoke with the class teacher who has spoken to L about telling everything that goes on even if another teacher deals with it. Apparently L is not the only child. He told me that no one wants to play with bully anymore and he walks alone all lunch hour. Sad for him. I hope he gets the help and support he needs. I think the school is going to give the parents a wake up call ;) and I think that might really help everyone out.

I told the deputy that I just want it to stop. I have faith that she will find a solution.

[boy wrangler]

Glad the meeting went well and you are feeling supported and listened to. It is sad for the bully and obviously there are reasons why he behaves the way he does. But, the priority needs to be protecting your son and the other children while getting the bully the help he needs. Hopefully his parents will listen to what people are saying, if everyone can work together and stop sending this little man mixed messages then I think there can be a successful resolution.

[jodiemiller]

Glad everything is out in the open. I'm sure this means change ahead.

[Savannah]

I didn't feel Rinelle's response was anti-school. And I didn't think BW was blaming the school. In fact I thought BW was quite pro-school in that she felt there was more they could do and provided examples of things that could be done. But that's just how I read their comments. We're all different and see things differently. (It's one of the things I love about this forum - that we're not so PC that we can't have differing opinions.)

I agree with the fact that bullying is primarily found in schools (as opposed to HS situations) but I think that is mainly because schools are a concentrated environment. Not good or bad, just a statement of how it is. There have certainly been bullying incidents in HS get-togethers that I have attended, so it's definitely not exclusive to the school environment. It is found as commonly in the workplace among adults.

I don't think choosing a non-violent approach necessarily makes you a victim. In fact it can put you in the power seat of a situation. But I can understand you wanting to protect your child and giving him the tools to protect himself. It can be so frustrating when you feel you are doing all the 'right' things and the situation doesn't change or gets worse.

It sounds like you are getting some results after talking with the school again and I hope that helps bring some positive change.


As a side note - I found the idea of sand in the eyes a little alarming. I know a child who was permanently blinded in one eye from thrown sand. Worse case scenario, but it can happen.

[Kali]

I spoke to a teacher friend tonight and she said that by retaliating or defending himself it does muddy the waters. She understood how I felt but warned me that at the moment L has done nothing wrong and the bully obviously has and has no way of justifying his action, especially now the school is investigating it further. Makes sense to me so I will talk to L again tomorrow and see if he thinks it is a good idea.

The bully came up to him again today and L said he was scared. Another friend, grew taller and told the bully to go away. That is the second day in a row that one of L's friends has helped him out. I am so proud of the group of boys he hangs out with and so pleased that he has their support.

[jodiemiller]

I didn't understand what you meant by 'retaliation' in the first instance and interpreted it as 'self-defence'. Revenge certainly wouldn't help L's case.

As an afterthought (and not condoning the throwing of sand at all but) even if there was injury to an eye, wouldn't that be the natural consequence for persistent bullying? I'm still inclined to think, in the heat of the moment, L is entitled to do whatever comes naturally. He is finding the way out of the situation one interaction at a time and I think he's to be commended for that.

[michelle_j_r]

Not specific to this instance, cos I don't know all the history or dynamics, but on general if my kids had repeatedly said no, removed themselves from a situation, but kept copping it again and again I would definitely be saying it was ok to defend yourself. I would be more worried about future instances that might be worse, or a situation in which an adult made him feel powerless and he thought he had to take it. If we find it hard to draw the line how can we expect children to?

I have no intention of raising children that feel they have so stand there, scared, and just take it cos it's naughty to defend yourself. You don't pick fights, you use your words, you step away and say NO, you call for help if someone is nearby, you come to the aid of anyone that needs help, you don't run away if someone else is hurt, you don't go near someone that makes you feel yuck- but if they keep at you and they hurt you kick em in the shins and run.

[Madi]

I don't have heaps of time, but what I wanted to say was that we need to be very careful about advocating retaliation as opposed to self defence. They are two really different things. There is a big difference between grabbing someone's wrist to stop them hitting you and hitting them yourself, for example. I completely support any child to, in the heat of the moment, react to protect themselves, but defense is not attack. I know that we, as adults, probably have a grasp of the finer differences, but we need to be careful what we tell kids because they may interpret it differently.

[Pinky]

I know that we, as adults, probably have a grasp of the finer differences, but we need to be careful what we tell kids because they may interpret it differently.

true... my daughter still quotes "the golden rule" as "you get what you give"... we explain to her NO.. it doesn't mean if someone is rude to you, or hits you that you do it back to them. The golden rule is that YOU treat others the way you'd like them to treat you. She looks at us and says "yeah.. that's what I said... you get what you give... if she wants me to be rude to her.. all she has to do is be rude to me first and I'll be rude back"

ARRRGGHHH!

[michelle_j_r]

The golden rule is that YOU treat others the way you'd like them to treat you.
but even that does not work. We really need to teach our kids to treat others as they would wish us to treat them. For example there is no point teaching our kids that it's fine to wrestle or play chasies with another child just cos our kids love to wrestle and chase if we know that another child does not like that kind of game. So we need to teach our kids that if someone else does not like something that it's ok and so to treat them the way they have requested that we treat them.

[lucylu]

I must admit permanent damage was the first thing that sprang to mind when I read the sand in the eyes comment, but I *think* it was a spur of the moment expression of the frustrations you were feeling and that you wouldn't actually tell DS to do that??

Anyway, glad school is assisting and I am also glad they are clear about the implications of retaliation. Hugs Kali, he is learning a lot about himself, you and the world in this process. It sounds like he is learning his parents are awesome and so are his friends, which must be comforting to know. Hopefully he will now also learn that eventually bullies suffer their own consequences.

[kateking]

A lot of recent replies are very admirable but they aren't really relevant in this case. The point has been missed from the original post. I would like to clarify that Kali did not advocate for her son to retaliate against this bully. Her son got fed up and retaliated of his own accord. He had already acted and then confessed to her ashamed after the event! That is completely different thing to advocating physical attack as a form of pre defence. She didn't do that at all! What she did do was support her child in the action that he had already taken. She knew the background and knew he had put up with constant physical attacks from this boy for two years, so she figured that he had every right to defend himself in the manner he thought appropriate to ensure he was left alone in the future. It has probably worked too. I honestly can't see what else he could have done. He was under attack for godsake! Telling people to treat others as they would like to be treated is not relevant in this situation. When someone comes up aggressively and physically attacks you for no reason at all, all social niceties tend to get thrown out the window when you are forced into that very real and dangerous situation and so they should. The reality is that there are some children in the playground who need constant supervision to ensure the saftey of others around them. Schools and their under rescourced staff do an amazing job coping with these extreme situations while still keeping the school fuctional and delivering the educational outcomes required of them. Speaking really plainly these kids are just not right in the head its not garden variety bullying, they enjoy hurting and they don't have the control or capacity to stop themselves that's why it is so hard, even impossible to eradicate. The reality of this situation has to be considered and it was by Kali. If I was her son I wouldn't change her one little bit.

[Madi]

What do you think? Is there a point where retaliation is necessary to make a bully stop?
I want to have a chat to my son and tell him that if he is going to retaliate then he should make sure it hurts enough for the lesson to be learnt.

Or am I way out of line?

KK - This the the part of the OP which I felt I was addressing. I totally agree that Kali has done the right thing in supporting the actions of L; I just feel like care needs to be taken not to provide "permission" to escalate the situation in the playground. Not all bullies will back down when you stand up to them, and I think it's a slippery slope to say violence is ok, that it's a solution, and that it should hurt to be effective.
If it were my child, and I had no option or desire to change schools, I would try to teach them how to block physical attacks without attacking back, and I'd also look into some kind of personal alarm (like joggers carry) to alert the teachers in case of attack.

Kali, I feel for you, I'm thinking of you, and I hope you and L get a resolution soon.

[Pinky]

but even that does not work. We really need to teach our kids to treat others as they would wish us to treat them. For example there is no point teaching our kids that it's fine to wrestle or play chasies with another child just cos our kids love to wrestle and chase if we know that another child does not like that kind of game. So we need to teach our kids that if someone else does not like something that it's ok and so to treat them the way they have requested that we treat them.

I don't see the difference between what you just said and my version of the golden rule.

"Treat others the way you would like to be treated"

ie.. would you like it if someone played a game that they liked, and they wanted you to play but you didn't like it (ie wrestling chasie). No you wouldn't.. so don't play games that even if you like it.. the person you are trying to play it with doesn't like it..

my daughter's version of the golden rule "give what you get" fits what you seem to be against.. (as am I).. hey if I want someone to play chasie with me.. I should play chasie with her. (regardless of how the other kid feels about chasie).. if someone is rude to me.. I am going to be rude back.

[Pinky]

Telling people to treat others as they would like to be treated is not relevant in this situation.

To be clear... My example was only an example of how children sometimes misinterpret what we tell them in support of Madi's comment "we need to be careful what we tell kids because they may interpret it differently."

I was not advocating either golden rule or give what you get to Kali's or her son. Just to be clear.

Sorry for the veer of the thread Kali.

[michelle_j_r]

must just be a different way of reading/interpreting it then. cos i agree with your point but i interpreted the way you explained it differently. but i think we both agree?? i have no clue. LOL!
but if someone is a vegetarian and you are not then don't feed them meat cos you like it. you have to remember that they don't like it and will not want you to give them any. perhaps that explains my point of view better. (my son wants to buy everyone bionicles for their birthdays just cos he likes them and i try to explain that not everyone else will want a bionicle and we have to think what that person might like).


A lot of recent replies are very admirable but they aren't really relevant in this case.perhaps not. perhaps we are now just all sitting around talking about bullying and various attitudes to it and various ways to handle it. I think Kali has already replied to say that she is well on the way to sorting things out and has seen the principal and has some direction and now we are all just continuing the conversation in our own meandering way. :shrug

[lucylu]

perhaps we are now just all sitting around talking about bullying and various attitudes to it and various ways to handle it. :yes especially the difference between self defence and retaliation and the pros and cons of whether or not we would suggest/discuss retaliation with our kids as Kali originally asked?

One things for sure, no one likes a bully but unfortunately it is a situation we all deal with from time to time. The thing that interests me is how *we* handle bullies? but that's a while nother thread!

[jodiemiller]

Maybe we should start that whole nother thread because obviously people have stuff to figure out about bullying.

My observation is that a lot of what is labelled bully behaviour in schools is not a true bullying situation. Some kids p*ss other kids off - it's just a personality thing. Unless the bully has a victim (or more than one) that is repeatedly targetted, it can't be called bullying. My kids are coming home saying 'so-and-so is a bully!' and I have to point out that we all can get annoying in our behaviour, or argumentative, or thoughtless, but if there's no overt power play in the situation, it doesn't qualify as bullying. It can be a fine line though.

[kateking]

perhaps not. perhaps we are now just all sitting around talking about bullying and various attitudes to it and various ways to handle it. I think Kali has already replied to say that she is well on the way to sorting things out and has seen the principal and has some direction and now we are all just continuing the conversation in our own meandering way. :shrug

Well if that's the case I guess I didn't need to stick my nose in!! I only did because I "felt" I picked up on a slight disapproving air? As someone who has just experienced this situation at school 1st hand I wanted to offer that prespective and the fact that sometimes it's just not possible to take the higher moral ground when you are under constant attack.

Interesting point from Jodie I think the word "Bully" is tossed around now and is used too often to label kids.
however this situation is a bullying situation I think as Kali's child was suffering constant physical bullying over a long period of time?

Pinky I was actually referring to Chelles post not yours, I didn't actually see yours until later.

Anyway I think I am clearly too emotionally attached to this topic! It might all be a little too raw still. It is a gut wrenching experience when your child actually goes through it.
So I will follow your discussion with interest :)

[Kali]

Wow! I have had a busy busy day and I didn't expect to come home to this.
Thankyou so much for splitting the thread. I am loving this discussion and this is the discussion I wanted to have. After reading this tonight I feel supported and understood, so thanks for that!


I didn't understand what you meant by 'retaliation' in the first instance and interpreted it as 'self-defence'. Revenge certainly wouldn't help L's case.

As an afterthought (and not condoning the throwing of sand at all but) even if there was injury to an eye, wouldn't that be the natural consequence for persistent bullying? I'm still inclined to think, in the heat of the moment, L is entitled to do whatever comes naturally. He is finding the way out of the situation one interaction at a time and I think he's to be commended for that.

I think 'self defence' is the best way to describe what happened and also what I am asking about.
I totally agree with the natural consequence with the sand. I hadn't thought about long term damage. I was upset, so was he and the sand throwing had already happened anyway.


I have no intention of raising children that feel they have so stand there, scared, and just take it cos it's naughty to defend yourself. You don't pick fights, you use your words, you step away and say NO, you call for help if someone is nearby, you come to the aid of anyone that needs help, you don't run away if someone else is hurt, you don't go near someone that makes you feel yuck- but if they keep at you and they hurt you kick em in the shins and run.

That is pretty much the conversation we had. We discussed all the things you do and that self defence was a last resort but that he should use it effectively if he needs to.

I don't have heaps of time, but what I wanted to say was that we need to be very careful about advocating retaliation as opposed to self defence. They are two really different things. There is a big difference between grabbing someone's wrist to stop them hitting you and hitting them yourself, for example. I completely support any child to, in the heat of the moment, react to protect themselves, but defense is not attack. I know that we, as adults, probably have a grasp of the finer differences, but we need to be careful what we tell kids because they may interpret it differently.

I think you are making a really good point here Madi. To be honest, I am not sure if it is practical. L is only small and Bully is big. This type of self defence takes a bit of quick thinking and training, but DH and I have spoken about putting him into some sort of martial arts course so perhaps cover this. I am open to other people comments on that idea. Save me starting a new thread.


Hugs Kali, he is learning a lot about himself, you and the world in this process. It sounds like he is learning his parents are awesome and so are his friends, which must be comforting to know. Hopefully he will now also learn that eventually bullies suffer their own consequences.

Totally agree!


A lot of recent replies are very admirable but they aren't really relevant in this case. The point has been missed from the original post. I would like to clarify that Kali did not advocate for her son to retaliate against this bully. Her son got fed up and retaliated of his own accord. He had already acted and then confessed to her ashamed after the event! That is completely different thing to advocating physical attack as a form of pre defence. She didn't do that at all! What she did do was support her child in the action that he had already taken. She knew the background and knew he had put up with constant physical attacks from this boy for two years, so she figured that he had every right to defend himself in the manner he thought appropriate to ensure he was left alone in the future. It has probably worked too. I honestly can't see what else he could have done. He was under attack for godsake! Telling people to treat others as they would like to be treated is not relevant in this situation. When someone comes up aggressively and physically attacks you for no reason at all, all social niceties tend to get thrown out the window when you are forced into that very real and dangerous situation and so they should. The reality is that there are some children in the playground who need constant supervision to ensure the saftey of others around them. Schools and their under rescourced staff do an amazing job coping with these extreme situations while still keeping the school fuctional and delivering the educational outcomes required of them. Speaking really plainly these kids are just not right in the head its not garden variety bullying, they enjoy hurting and they don't have the control or capacity to stop themselves that's why it is so hard, even impossible to eradicate. The reality of this situation has to be considered and it was by Kali. If I was her son I wouldn't change her one little bit.

Thanks KK! I really appreciate your post and I feel like you really understand me and the position I am in.


KK - This the the part of the OP which I felt I was addressing. I totally agree that Kali has done the right thing in supporting the actions of L; I just feel like care needs to be taken not to provide "permission" to escalate the situation in the playground. Not all bullies will back down when you stand up to them, and I think it's a slippery slope to say violence is ok, that it's a solution, and that it should hurt to be effective.
Kali, I feel for you, I'm thinking of you, and I hope you and L get a resolution soon.

Thanks Madi! I harped on so long about when it was appropriate the defend himself and when it wasn't that L ended up asking me to stop talking because he really did understand. :2lol


perhaps not. perhaps we are now just all sitting around talking about bullying and various attitudes to it and various ways to handle it. I think Kali has already replied to say that she is well on the way to sorting things out and has seen the principal and has some direction and now we are all just continuing the conversation in our own meandering way. :shrug
Nope, loving this conversation. Fresh ideas and perpectives. I am growing along with my son.


Well if that's the case I guess I didn't need to stick my nose in!! I only did because I "felt" I picked up on a slight disapproving air? As someone who has just experienced this situation at school 1st hand I wanted to offer that prespective and the fact that sometimes it's just not possible to take the higher moral ground when you are under constant attack.

Anyway I think I am clearly too emotionally attached to this topic! It might all be a little too raw still. It is a gut wrenching experience when your child actually goes through it.
So I will follow your discussion with interest :)

Please don't bow out of the conversation. I like what you have to say. :D

So a small update, today the bully came up to L and pushed his face into his and then walked away. I know it is only small, but to me that is threatening and try to get L to appear scared. He has never done anything like that before to L. I am going to see the deputy again tomorrow and I will tell her. I hope I don't seem petty, but to me, it is a change and perhaps shows some intent to scare.

[kateking]

Kali, thanks for taking the time to respond as you did. Re the bully... I don't think that was a small thing today. It was a threat.
When I read "try to get L to appear scared" It did make me smile despite everything. Go L!!!
I hope this resolves in your favour soon so you can get some relief from the worry. x

[Kali]

I think because now he has such support from his family, his teachers and now his friends too, he is feeling stronger and like there is light at the end of the tunnel. I think knowing that it is ok to defend himself has helped imensely too. He doesn't feel alone and helpless.

[lucylu]

that's great Kali :)

[jodiemiller]

Every little instance of contact that is intended to intimidate should be noted and reported I reckon. It could only take a side-ways glance at the wrong moment to escalate into something ugly. How can another week have gone by with your son still enduring this boy's taunts and nothing be done about it? How come that child is even allowed within distance of L??

[Pinky]

I too will be following with interest. As I'm going through it first hand too but in a different way. Yours is physical and very very aggressive and of course the mental intimidation that goes with that. With my girl it is a whole lot of the mental intimidation but very little physical examples of it. But when it is your child.. it is so hard.

The first steps are so important.. but it is long road. As I'm finding out. It seems to be a long process in our case.

[Kali]

It has only been a few days Jodie. I saw his teacher today who told me that she, bullies teacher and the deputy were working together on it. I have a longer appointment with her this afternoon and another with the deputy tomorrow morning.
To be fair, the only incident we have had this week is the 'in your face' incident. L has been well sheilded by his mates who have told bully to go away as soon as he comes near him. L is feeling pretty good about that level of support. When you think about it, those friends are the first there. Anyway that they can help without becoming a victim or making a victim of the bully helps L grow in confidence. I am sure the teachers on playground duty will also be vigilant. Lets see what the teachers and deputy say at the meeting.
This has been going on for a long time. It is not easy to solve or it would have been solved already. I am patient and happy to sit through the process to get a good, long term solution.

[Rinelle]

I'm so glad to hear that his friends are defending him Kali. I'm sure that really helps.

With the martial arts, I think it's great that kids know how to defend themselves, it can give them a real sense of confidence, that can often allow them to deflect a bully without resorting to violence. But I also think it has to be approaced carefully (which it sounds like you're doing), and put as a last resort, not a first resort. DH's parents response to his being bullied at school was to get him self defence lessons, and this has left him feeling like the answer to a lot of things is to hit bullies. He wouldn't actually do it, but he does talk about it. I think though, that this was because the self defence lessons were the ONLY solution he was given, and the talking and support you and the school are giving your DS was absent.

[jodiemiller]

Why not first resort? Martial arts is a sport. It would all come down to whether L is interested in doing it or not. Not all kids are.

[Rinelle]

I mean using it, not learning it.

[Karena]

I've stayed away from this thread for various reasons but I have to comment on getting L into martial arts. We got Harry into it last year and it was the best thing we did. They teach Harry that's self defence and that he doesn't start fights and to walk away BUT if the person keeps coming, then Harry is learn how to "drop" them and THEN walk away. It's done a huge amount for his confidence as well. I've also noticed that he doesn't play fight as much at home as he use to. He's more controlled. So all in all our experience with Martial arts has been very good.

[Kali]

What does 'drop' them mean?

Thanks Karena! You and Harry were who I thought of as a good example when I spoke to DH.

[jodiemiller]

You don't have to 'use it' for it to have deterrence-value. There is a 'confidence-transfer' that happens once kids know they can defend themselves if necessary. There is also deterrence-value when bullies know about their target's skills.

I assume 'drop' them is a term for a throw or hold that temporarily disables the opponent by getting them to ground? We are a judo family so to me that would be achieved by a 'throw' but in Karate or Tae Kwon Do it could be achieved by a 'block' or by a kick or punch. In Aikido, it could be a 'pull' that throws the opponent out of equilibrium. Pinky might come along soon and correct my terminology but while all martial arts are different, they do operate on identical precepts and that is primarily blocking and defense.

[Kali]

You don't have to 'use it' for it to have deterrence-value. There is a 'confidence-transfer' that happens once kids know they can defend themselves if necessary.

I like that idea.

I had my meeting with the deputy this morning. I am happy with the outcome. Bullies parents have been spoken to throughout the week. Both parents were contacted separately to make sure the message was heard and understood. Bully was referred to the Special Needs Group and they are still looking into a social skills program for him. I pushed on this issue as the deputy seemed to think that he might not need it now that he knows the next time he goes near L he will be suspended. I spoke to her about fixing the problem long term rather than short term by getting the kid more social skill lessons.

Last night I went out with a friend and mentioned all this and she went a bit quiet and then said that her son was having issues with the same kid. I asked her to go and see the deputy too so that the deputy knows that this is not a isolated case.

I am happy. The deputy seems pretty sure he won't reoffend and is ready to suspend him if he does. L knows what to do if bully comes near him and has said that he is feeling safer at school.

[kateking]

Fantastic Kali.That all sounds really positive. We actually had an extra problem with our situation because the "Bully" (for want of a better term) was learning Martial Arts and he used it to hurt other kids, which made the whole thing scarier!! In the wrong hands it does become a deadly weapon, In the right hands I think its a great idea, a valuable skill etc and I don't have a problem with it.

[lucylu]

that's great Kali xx

[Kali]

My DH just came home and said bully was being told off by the deputy soon after I left. I wish DH was better at eves dropping because he couldn't say why. Maybe it was from info I gave, but DH seemed to think it was separate. Maybe bully will be suspended now. I will have to super slueth what it was about this aftenoon at pick up.

[Phoenix]

I have never understood how suspension teaches the child? Kids see days off as cool! :shrug It is one way of keeping other children feeling safe though, just not sure it is effective overall. But that is my own opinion.

[Phoenix]

BTW, great that L is feeling empowered! Awesome!

[jodiemiller]

Suspension gets you in trouble with your parents - especially if they are workers who must re-arrange their lives to accommodate days off school. But yeah, I agree there's no real sense to it.

[Kali]

Agree somewhat and that was why I was pushing for him to get into a social skills class and told her I was looking for long term soloutions instead of short term solutions.

[boy wrangler]

Sounds like things are coming along well. I agree that there have to be immediate actions (that show the bully right now that what he's doing is unacceptable) and long term solutions like the social skills. Hopefully any other parents whose kids are affected will stand up too!

[Emily33]

Thought I'd link in Robin Grille's article "Natural Born Bullies" http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_grille/natural_born_bullies.html. I hope you can draw some points that can help you. (BTW you can always ask Robin for advice on how to handle this situation http://www.our-emotional-health.com/counselling.html if he's not booked out. Maybe send him an email about what's going on.)

Here are a few paragraphs from the article which resonate with me:

"It is not too difficult to understand why children who are punished physically can become bullies. As far back as (1977), research psychologists Walters and Grusec concluded: 'that physical punishment … leads to an increase in aggressive behavior, and that the mechanism for this increase is imitation'. The smacking or spanking parent is unwittingly acting as a role-model for aggressive behavior. The way this works was ingeniously demonstrated by a series of experiments reported in Bandura's 1973 book: 'Aggression: A Social Learning Analysis'. These experiments graphically depicted the way children would imitate adults who acted violently toward toy dummies.

For role-modeled behavior to be efficiently transmitted, three main conditions must be met. Firstly, children are more likely to imitate role models that they look up to or love. That's why parents are such powerful role models. Secondly, the role model's actions are more likely to be imitated if they are seen to meet with success. In other words, the attitude that 'might is right' is passed on when a spanking disciplinarian succeeds in changing a child's behavior, and remains unchallenged. The third condition is that violence must be legitimized and sanctioned in order to be imitated. In other words, children more readily adopt violent attitudes if they have been made to believe that harsh punishment is 'deserved'.

It's been shown that violent children come from violent or neglectful homes. This matter has been put to rest. But only about half of abused children grow up to be abusive. Why? Individuals who remain convinced that verbal or physical assaults against them were 'deserved' are significantly more likely to act out violently. This is also true for violence witnessed against others. Bandura (1973) refers to a study that found that children displayed much more imitation of violent behaviors depicted on video, if these behaviors were approved by an adult, less so if the adult was silent, and even less if the adult expressed disapproval of the video violence. Children who grow up believing that being hit is what they well deserved, go on to be more accepting of and de-sensitized to violence in general. They are candidates for the ranks of bullies, victims, or both.

A side-effect of harsh punishment is that it de-sensitizes people to their pain, then also to the pain of others. This de-sensitization process is what facilitates the acting out of violence. The process of de-sensitization to violence begins when a child who, branded as "bad" or "naughty", accepts the blame and the assault that comes with it. A "tough skin" grows over the wound, which obscures the depth of the pain that throbs beneath. The pain and betrayal felt is sealed off, minimized, trivialized, or denied. Deafness to one's own pain entails indifference to the pain of others. Those whose anger boils over become bullies, those who are paralyzed with fear, the victims. Others hover in between, harboring a predilection to retributional and "might is right" attitudes. The landscape is dotted with the punished and the beaten; who grow up to make light of it, or to stoically profess that: "it never did me any harm!".

How grossly adults tend to dilute or whitewash any violence they suffered as children, is grimly illustrated by studies such as that of Berger et al (1988) and Knutson and Selner (1994). Both studies found numerous respondents who reported having been punished in their childhood so brutally as to require hospitalization, but only 43% and 60% (respectively) of these considered themselves abused! By contrast, Hunter and Kilstrom (1979) found that people who were openly angry about any abuse they had suffered as children, were statistically less likely to transmit this abuse onto others. Beaten children who are at risk of becoming bullies or offenders can be helped once somebody can make it abundantly clear to them that spankings or thrashings are not just nor deserved.

A wholistic and therefore more effective approach to "treating" school bullies would be to compassionately examine the environment in which the violent responses were learned, and then to work co-operatively with family members to alter the dynamics of this environment. If violence is an adaptive behavior learned within a family system, it makes no sense to teach a bully not to be violent, only to send him or her back to the original system that they are powerless to change. It must be understood that bullying behavior is a reaction to powerlessness. To consider bullies as offenders is superficial, when in fact, they are victims. The fundamental way in which the family operates must change, through exposure to alternative means to authoritarian, punitive or "power-over" methods of child-control.

Systems-theory based family therapy models are non-blaming, they recognize and affirm that each family member is doing their best given the resources available to them. New options for more enhancing ways to interact can be taught, without finding fault in any individual. Why not have a policy that makes it standard procedure to invite parents or carers of school bullies to the school? The purpose would be to identify any areas where parents might need support through stressful situations, to train parents in assertive and non-authoritarian parenting methods, and to empower parents by including them co-operatively in programs to assist their children.

As long as any kind of violence is sanctioned in the home, there will be bullies. Bullies in schools, bullies in business, bullies in politics. There will also be victims. This is not a fact of life, but an artifact of history. Historians and anthropologists have only recently discovered that, up until very recently, and for most of human history, child-rearing has tended to be extremely violent (de Mause 1982 and 1988, Blaffer-Hrdy 2001, Boswell 1988). It is no wonder that violence persists in so many forms, across all age groups, and that most of us are capable of slipping and treating our children violently on occasions, even if we strive against it."

I'm reluctant to comment or give my personal opinion. It's such a sensitive situation and I'm no expert. I'm interested in Australia banning corporal punishment in the home and have therefore read a bit about bullying in this context. A total ban on corporal/physical punishment will significantly reduce the rate of bullies in society and so I find myself campaigning for such a ban in Australia. As usual Robin's work resonates with my thinking and so I find myself referring to his work a lot. I'd probably find myself printing out the article and handing it to the principal.

I really hope the school principal sets a clear boundary and ensures both the emotional and physical protection of all the children in the school environment. Despite the school's best efforts this child is still terrorising children and the school must put an immediate end to this. And like the others I'm glad to hear things are moving along.

IMHO bullying or any form of violence (emotional or physical) is not acceptable and should not be allowed, even if we can understand its roots and empathise with the bully (and the school's efforts to date).

I sincerely hope that the bully and his family truly get the help they need and if it's not within the school's capacity to provide this help that the child and his family get the help they need elsewhere whilst ensuring the emotional and physical protection of your son and the rest of the school community.

[Emily33]

More than anything I hope your son can feel completely safe and protected by the school and free of this bully. And that you continue to feel supported throughout the process.

I remember having to fight for my sister and the girls who bullied her... I'd put them in their place (with my words) but hated every minute of it.