Back to the sleep thing :(

[melchpeppi]

Oh man, I am so sick of this being an issue but it has gotten to a point where both DP and I are getting upset, annoyed and angry not only with eachother but with our little guy. He turns two soon, and still wakes pretty much every 1.5hrs, crying and needing to be patted back to sleep. My arms ache now because it is so constant.

He co-sleeps - firstly he goes to sleep with his big sis and then wakes (crying) at about 10pm usually, and we take him straight into our bed. He will usually go straight back to sleep, and then start on the waking from there :(. We are finding that by midnight we are losing the plot because he just wont go back to sleep easily. It just took DP 40mins to get him back to sleep, and Im telling you - by the end of that time it does not matter who is doing the patting, we are angry and have had enough. We know it is not fair on DS to be this way but it has been this way every single night since he was probably four months old and we are exhausted.

We have ditched dairy, that wasn't it. He has been on Losec when he was little, and it did little :(.

I know this is going to sound bad but Ive really had it. Im tired, nearly 30wks pregnant and right now I feel determined never to cosleep another baby. This has been hard, awful and it is the second time around for us - Lola was exactly the same :(. I feel like while we have tried to do everything right, we have somehow done everything wrong and ended up with exactly what we were trying not to have - a dreadful and hard to deal with night time issue :(.

Our Dr just says 'cry him, thats the only solution' and I actually had an epiphany tonight - he is crying anyway :(. And it makes it harder and worse for me because that is the exact situation that I have tried to avoid the whole time :(. There is no apparent medical reason for this inability to sleep. He just will not go into a deep sleep.

I dont even know what I want or what Im asking. Well, I really want a child that will sleep but I dont get to have that so you know, what am I to do?

[Kali]

OK let me start by giving you a big hug! It is not easy is it?



Our Dr just says 'cry him, thats the only solution' and I actually had an epiphany tonight - he is crying anyway :(.


There is a big difference between being ignored when you are crying and being held when you are crying. AP parents don't like to have their kids cry, but comforting them through hard emotions is the most important thing of all. They need to know we are there for them.

Are you breastfeeding? If you weaned when did you? What happens when he wakes up?

Usually in the second trimester of each of my pregnancies my hubby night weans the nursing child. I move into the other room and sleep through until the baby comes. Is this an option for you? I know your hubby is suffering as well, but you are have a miracle growing inside you that is hard work!

Is he teething?
Is he cold?
What do you feed him from about 4pm onwards?

I want to help but I need more information.

Have you tried giving him rescue remedy or a calming homeopathic before he goes to sleep?

Maybe you need to let us know what you have tried.

My first son was like this until we night weaned him at 18months. It took a couple of nights of DH holding him whilst he cried but he did sleep through on the 3rd or 4th night.

One last question... Does he snore?

[melchpeppi]

Thankyou Kali, I am willing to try *just* about anything (that does not involve a sleep clinic or crying ..) :).

I have followed his sleep pattern and pretty much -

7.30 - sleep ritual starts for Taj and his sister
8pm - Lola fast asleep, Taj being patted
somewhere between 8 and 9.30 - Taj is asleep
around 10pm (if he goes to sleep at 8 - 8.30) - first waking, usually not crying - easier to settle (up until this week, it took over 40mins last night)
and then every 1.5 - 2hrs from then.

*sometimes* he will have a good stretch of sleep, which is about three hours.

He has weaned, he isn't interested any more - he weaned 'officially' I guess, about two months ago? I havent tried rescue remedy or any homeopathics (apart from the teething tablets, which we use ALOT right now!).

Yep he does has about three or four teeth coming through, and on Thursday and Friday night just passed he had major temps, which were teething :(. He was awake every 15-20mins (and crying in pain), but it was a different cry again last night - just the 'normal' 'Taj sleep cry'.

When he wakes, I know I go through the 'list' - is he thirsty, is he cold, has he soiled his nappy, is he hot etc until I find that I just do not know.

We have tried using disposables instead of cloth. We have changed him through the night, as opposed to using a bulky night nappy. Neither of these have changed anything.

I have not noticed his snoring - I think when he is asleep I am so comatose that maybe I might miss it? I dont think he does though, I have heard of sleep apnea and have wondered because he does not stir and wake - he kind of startles and wakes and cries :(. His father is the hell snorer and I think I do too. (eek, maybe we are waking him up with our snoring!)

DP usually does about a week with him and then he is swearing so much (and getting really angry) that I end up doing a couple of nights with him to give DP some sleep. It has been the only way - we sleep in seperate beds (and TBH thats not a bad thing because this issue is kind of putting a ridge between us. I HATE the swearing and anger in the middle of the night).

Tajs sleep has always been like this. Our frustration has been probably since I have been in my 2nd trimester I would say. Maybe because I cannot cope so well anymore :(.

ITA about the difference between ignoring a crying baby and soothing a crying baby - Im sure that even if I tried, I could never leave him crying all alone :(.

Im not only frustrated because of our anger, Im frustrated because our Drs just dont seem to 'get it'. There are days where I just will not drive because I am so tired and Ive got an irrational fear about sleep and this little baby in my tummy :(.


Thankyou again Kali xx

[michelle_j_r]

oh, hugs. Darcy was (is) a totally crap sleeper too. He is 20months and used to wake all the fucking time and i was a mess because of it.

I was going to say night ween him but then read further and you have.

Maybe you and your DH ARE waking him. Can you try putting him in his own bed and for the time being you sleep near that bed. Maybe put a single bed next to your bed for a while.... you are not going to be wanting to sleep on a matress in his room at 30weeks!!! But does he respond to your DH well of a night? Darcy would scream if my ex tried to settle him cos he would only want me at night.

Otherwise i would highly suggest tressilian. I have a good friend that went through it (actually, i have three friends that used them) but one in particular is very AP and they adjusted their routine to what she was comfy with and it worked.

Is he able to settle himself for day naps? Can you give him a book or something and put him to bed tired and he will put himself to sleep? Cos i think that is a massive first step in teaching them to self-settle. Darcy will still not do that and still needs me to settle him but thankfully once i night weaned him he is down to waking about 2+half or three hourly so i can manage that better (and i am not pregnant).

hugs, hugs, hugs and massive hugs.

Call Tresillian now. so you have time to sort it out before you have a newborn to deal with.

[cherish]

hugs honey- I also had a frequent waker.. it was not fun!

Don't know if it would help- but I took him to the osteopath- and the change was pretty much immediate.. he would still wake, but not cry- would settle with a pat.. and gradually he's become a much better sleeper. He also had some digestive issues- and I think was constipated for a long time.. which is uncomfy. The osteo treatment would help get his bowels moving again..

love to you at this time!

[lindylou]

Oh Mel- ((hugs))...

I wish I could do more for you xxxx

[melchpeppi]

AH, I didn't know that Tresillian adjusted their 'program' IYKWIM. That is very good to know. Ive avoided any of those places because I was a little scared of what they might do..

I have thought though that he might be hungry. Tonight I am going to try giving him a snack before he goes to bed. I have been giving him formula only because he was eating really poorly, and not having booby milk anymore. Should I offer him a banana/drink or the like, or a sandwich before bed? My instincts keep saying that he is hungry. He is not a big eater at the best of times...

[Rinelle]

Ezri was like this until around two too. I can only blame it on teeth, because about 2 months after the last one came through, she suddenly started sleeping through the night. Dropping her day nap also happened around the same time, and meant she went to sleep earlier, and far more quickly. If it's any comfort, you're probably not far away from him sleeping through. Maybe not much help with a newborn on the way though.

Another thing to consider is worms (going through that again here), which can make them restless at night.

*hugs* It is SO hard. I totally understand your frustration with it. Hope things ease up soon.

[mamma]

hugs to you xo

just a few thoughts after reading your posts;
a side car cot arangement could be worth trying, or a mattress on your floor?

i am wondering if him settling with his sister and then comibg imnto you is too disruptive foe him? have you tried settling him in your room and leaving him there?
also, i feel that a 7.30 bedtime for a (is he 2?) toddler is too late. have you tried putting hjim to bed earlier? it might be that he is over tired/stimulated?

a warm bath, massage, story before bed might help too?
how muxh one on one time does he get with you/your dp during the day? could he be waking at night to have that closeness/interaction?

is hew sleeping during the day? are you able to sleep when he does so the nifght waking is not so much of an issue?

have you tried snuggling your boy rather than patting? or singing to him?

nighttime parenting by dr sears is a great book and so worth the read

go with your gut. maybe having a snack ready in the room for him when he wakes would be helpful?

if you do feel the need to call tresillian, remember you dont have to do what they suggest and if you did glo there you can leave at any time (the mention of the place makes me shudder, but i do get that its horses for courses yk?)

[melchpeppi]

OMG I didnt even think of worms! He has never been 'wormed' before... Definitely worth trying.

And maybe we do need to address the actual sleep arrangements, you are right. I think that it is disrupting - well, it is to me, having to move from one bed to another in the middle of the night! I might do Tajs sleep thang and DP do Lolas, just for a bit to see if we can get through this.

We do have alot of one on one time BUT I think that we are not as active as we should be. We are about to head out for the morning and Taj can walk everywhere. Not taking the pram and not taking a carrier :).

Im glad I reached out, I feel better already. I think that the coffee has helped too hahahahahha

[emd]

Have you read "No Cry Sleep Solution" for toddlers? Elizabeth Pantley has lots of ideas you can try to settle them without crying it out, and covers all set-ups including co-sleeping, own room, and everything in between. Perhaps he needs to get used to a different re-settling method, one that still allows you and DP to get enough sleep.

I had a friend who was totally over the co-sleeping thing and was pregnant and her partner was working overseas. She put a mattress on the floor next to her toddler's bed for a while, so she could sleep comfortably but still be in physical contact for re-settling as needed. Although this may not help you, just throwing it out there as another idea.

When Jools was around 9 months, I found that the settling technique I had been using was no longer something I could live with, so I had to change it. There was no way to avoid the crying - she was understandably unhappy and her only way to communicate that was by crying. But she got used to the new settling method when I was persistent and consistent, and I was there with her so I felt like I was "doing something" rather than just leaving her to work it out on her own.

[´*~·Meje·~*`]

I definitely second the osteopath!!

Tresillian really? Im quite shocked that its even being suggested to TBH.

I dont think babies need to be 'trained' to sleep how we want them to. What seems obvious here though is that he is distressed frequently at night, not just waking often and disturbing mum sleep YK? I really do feel that any type of sleep 'training' could be detrimental at this point, and will ignore any cause of his distress - even an 'adjusted program'.

Your gut instinct so far has to been to seek medical help, as something doesn't seem 'right' yes? Id go with that....maybe the GP isnt the right health professional for the problem, so is overseeing the problem.

Is he like this only at night? Is he unsettled say in the car seat, at day sleeps, any other times? or only at night?

These are the things I would be looking at if it was me.

Is co-sleeping the issue? - only one way to find out, maybe he is being disturbed/frighted by snoring?, as you mentioned earlier, he doest wake crying/startled when he wakes with this sister at 10pm.

Is there another issue causing it - could an osteopath correct any imbalances, etc that are causing pain/general unsettledness etc... I have a good chiro, so that would be my personal choice to try first. But Id also look at osteo, naturopath/herbalist as well (Im also lucky that I have someone I can trust, who is also a GP), and seek out a good kinesiologist.

[Bron]

i actually wake more often than any of my children now, i'm so used to waking often :)

if he were still breastfed, it is very possible he'd still be waking frequently for feeds until he was 2, so it makes sense he could still be doing so for the same reason (brain development). If this is the case for T, he may well soon start to sleep better. (Josie was my only child not to do so, she was 3 before it happened. The first 3 did though).

Do you think it would help to actually lay down with him rather than sitting next to him? I find if I relax rather than the whole stress head thing (no talking, just a hand on the back), they fall asleep much quicker. I often fall asleep as well :)

Or, perhaps start to sing or something? This may nto be successful if you haven't done it all along. I always have sung, and now, it helps them relax and go into sleep mode.

[melchpeppi]

I have NCSS for toddlers, and really should read it again I think. DP is a great reader, and I have also suggested that he read it also.

We have been chatting today about it and I feel like we have moved beyond being defensive with eachother (thats DP and I of course LOL!) and now I think we are going to make some positive changes.

He says that Lola was very much the same, and he remembers actually falling asleep during a uni exam because he was so exhausted. Now I do not remember that but I believe him - he was actually 'doing' the night duty at the time! In any case, it is both heartening and disheartening to know this...

I do wonder about whether there is more to it and have made a bit of a list of things we need to tick off, before we head down any other path. If you think of anything I have missed or need to add please just add away :)

- snack and milk/drink before sleep to eliminate hunger. (and on the hunger topic, what do we do if he is hungry during the night and is not used to eating/having a bottle/drink?)

- put his as yet unused cot in our room, within arms reach of our bed

- white noise (is it best just to have a radio that isn't tuned in for this?)

- valium for us. Ok, for DP cos Im up the duff

Thats just so far. ANd I think we need to keep track of what is actually happening a-la sleep diary, so yep reading the NCSS is in order for sure.

Bizarre as it is, he has just been asleep for nearly 2hrs. Weirdness.

[Karena]

Oh Mel, you know I know how you are feeling Hon.

Brock has only just started sleeping better at night, these are some of the things we have done.

- We took him to a chiro and it works wonders. At that time he was waking every hour, after chiro he was sleeping 2-3hrs at a stretch and that was bliss.

- Brock is in his own room, in a big bed. When it's hot he has a fan on

- Before bed he has drink of water and then boobie.

- Now this bit still freaks me out. The last couple of weeks, before bed I've been saying to Brock "Now sleep all the way to morning Brock, no waking up, no crying, sleep all the way to morning" and he has been. I didn't say this for a few nights and he woke up throughout the night. But the nights I say it he sleeps from 7:30 to around 6amish. Now we say it every night.

- If he wakes before Midnight, DH goes in, gives him a drink of water and tells him 'it's sleeptime brocky, no waking until morning" usually we don't hear anything from him until morning.

I agree with trying a different sleeping arrangement, when you guys go to bed it may be bringing him out of his deep sleep and he can't get back to it.

The past 3 nights Brock has slept through and this is the longest stretch he has ever slept through, so it can happen. I never thought Brock would.

I hope you find a solution that works for all of you Hon

[emd]

I ended up going to QEII (our Tresillian-type centre) with Jools at 9 months to get into the new settling method with support, as I was far too tired to do it without help. QEII were fine - I told them upfront that crying to sleep isn't a workable solution in our house, and there's no point teaching me something I can't continue at home. They helped me establish patting to sleep as our settling method (as I'd been trying to do with No Cry Sleep Solution). When we got home, it progressed after about a month to just putting my hand on her and saying "back to sleep". Now when she wakes (she's 4 years) I just call out "back to sleep" and she's usually fine. If you do go to Tresillian and their advice doesn't fit with your family life, or it just doesn't feel right, you don't have to do it - just go home. I was given other advice while I was there (about Juliet's slim build) which I chose to ignore because I felt it was rubbish. Another bonus of going to QEII for me, was that all the mums have a session with the counsellor to check if they have PND. I didn't have PND, but it was useful to have a counsellor reassure me that it's quite normal to feel awful when you're sleep deprived.

One thing the midwife at QEII encouraged me to do was breastfeed as much as I wanted during the day, for comforting as well as food, because I didn't want to use breastfeeding overnight as a comforter. Perhaps you could up the daytime feeds to ensure he's getting his quota of nutrients before bedtime?

Another idea is to have a favourite teddy or blanky in his hands while you're feeding - especially if he's a twiddler or fidgety feeder - and he then takes teddy or blanky to bed at night. The teddy will smell like you and he'll associate it with comforting.

I like the idea about one parent staying with him while the other gets a good night's sleep with the other child. You could swap it around too, so it's not always both of you feeling exhausted the next day.

[Rinelle]

For white noise, we taped the shower running (we used to use the shower, but obviously with water shortages, we didn't want to continue). I could post you a copy of the CD if you like? I have it on mp3, but it's about 60 MB.

[Karena]

I've found having the fan on, is white noise so that may help. Especially in this hot weather

[mama_bel]

Some things I tried with mine once they weaned were -
- as Karena described - telling them it was dark time, sleepy time (before bed and when they woke)
- relaxation type CDs with nature sounds and/or soft classical music
- drink of water - sippy cup or baby bottle, water bottle later on
- not too much sleep in the daytime, and plenty of food and activity

Best wishes, sleeplessness is awful.

[Nyree]

Homoepath & Osteo / kinesiologist were going to be my suggestions, too.

When DD was little, we had the Sounds For Silence CD - it was REALLY good. Certain songs/noises worked better than others, so I just burnt those in a loop onto another CD.

[Mama Chai]

Big hugs, sleeplessness sucks. My boy is three and a half and only now starting to sleep, I have totally bribed him with a Ben 10 watch from Santa.... hey it seems to be working, not ideal but I am at the point where I will do anything! Good luck xxx

[melchpeppi]

Thankyou :D

LOL - if the bribe works, do it! Sleep is too precious!

We have changed it up tonight, and I have my pad and pen with my phone (for the time) beside the bed to keep track of what this littles guys sleep is like tonight.

The bizarre thing is that I feel good about this, like we are being proactive instead of lost.

Fingers crossed!

[mamma]

how'd you go last night?

[melchpeppi]

Well, we logged everything and he did wake five times. He stayed in Lolas bed and either I or DP just snuggled with him when he awoke. He did really well - didn't cry so much. I do think that it was hunger and perhaps that we do not tire him out enough, so we are going to have an evening walk every night now too :).

I am pretty sure that I have discovered also that he hates being patted back to sleep *eek*

[Hailstorm]

Haven't got time for a big reply but here are a few other things

If he hates being patted, try stroking his hair and face. This worked heaps for my kids stroke with your thumb from the eyebrows down the bridge of the nose the automatic reflex is to close your eyes when someone does this. And every now and then sweep down with your whole hand

If he is hungry give him dinner a bit later then usual, and maybe a sandwich about half an hour before bed.

Have water available for when he wakes, this was a major thing with my kids (esp. Ben) if he didn't have a drink over night (milk or water) he would wake and would be impossible to get back to sleep

[michelle_j_r]

i think that at 30w preggers if you are getting no sleep then you have to do something. I know that if i were dealing with the way Darcy was 4 to 6months ago and i was heavily pregnant or had a newborn i would be beyond a mess. Seriously. I hardly coped as it was and add a baby into the mix and i would have been so close to the edge i have no idea what i would have done.....

in saying that i would have LOVED to have been near a Tressilian sort of group. I phoned them and got shit for advice but my close friend that went to the centre had a great experience cos she told them up front what she would and would not do and they encouraged her to BF and everything... they did, however, stop the cosleeping so i guess it depends on what you want.

And i think a 2yr old that can't settle himself might help to learn to self-settle. Not by crying and having no option but by beaing taught how to relax enough to allow them to fall asleep.... so i would have no issue with it.

A banana before bed would not hurt!!! I think the potassium or something is suppsed to help sleep.

Does he have nightmares? I think Darcy often 'wakes' crying and upset but he is not actually AWAKE but apart from regular settling techniques i don't know what else to do with that but putting it out there as an idea.

Worms you can check for with the light at night. I thought of that as well for on the nights he contantly woke screaming, but in the end i tracked that back to a bad tomato allergy or reaction which put an end to the nights of screaming.

Darcy hates his back being patted but does not mind his lower bum being patted.

I think osteopathy or cranial sacral are both great ideas too.

hugs

[Rinelle]

When Ezri wakes these days in the middle of the night (we're back to waking once most nights, but I can deal with that), I just cuddle up with her until she goes back to sleep, which is usually fairly quickly. I also find that she sleeps far more quickly if I'm practically asleep myself, LOL.

[melchpeppi]

Yes, good point - and I should not complain but he settles better (well, faster with no crying) for me that DP :(. That doesnt mean that I *should* do the entire night thing, but yeah, he does settle for a snuggle with me better...

Ive got the name of a good chiro here and will be booking in with her next week. For sure! That and rescue remedy is on the cards too. And worm hunting.

He loves banana! I will offer that in his 'sleep food platter' tonight after we take them for a walk to look at the Christmas lights :D

I cannot thank you girls enough, I really appreciate (and need) all the help I can get!

[´*~·Meje·~*`]

Something Kyls mentioned about water sparked a memory about DS1 when he was about the same age.

he would wake frequently, and launch into a tanty, fuss fuss fuss etc... I later discovered that while we had not started with toilet awareness, he was waking needing to wee! and would fuss and cary on until he finally did one..in his nappy. So I started taking him to the toilet as soon as he woke up, which helped, as he would then go straight back to sleep.

The other thing was the water, not realising he was waking thirsty, has he no longer BF at night (due to me being pregnant and night weaning him already), he was thirsty! Sometimes water was not enough, and some warm rice milk hit the spot.

He also never settled for his dad...none of them did.

[Hailstorm]

Oh yeah Mel! that's one thing I did (and still do) with Haze if she wakes I'll always take her to the loo she goes right back to sleep as soon as (or I swear sometimes before) she is in bed

[melchpeppi]

Oh wow, really?! That is definitely do-able too! He is holding on to his big morning pee and waits until his night nappy is off to do it so you might be onto something there..

[´*~·Meje·~*`]

I know i rarely hold on all night...even BC! LOL!

[emd]

Jools sometimes settles better if I put her to bed a little earlier than usual. Sometimes when she's overtired, she finds it harder to get into a deep sleep.
She also settled better after an evening walk, or lots of outings during the day.
Good luck, hope you find a solution that suits your boy.

[melchpeppi]

Its a bit later tonight *oops* but we had a little walk and a drive, and he is verrrry quiet and contented (with a full tummy) and should be off in zed land before we know it :).

[Rach]

My suggestion would be cranio sacral therapy...

[michelle_j_r]

with the needing to wee thing, yeah, very possible! Darcy even from 6months ago (at about 14months old) would wake upset and need to wee. It was not long before he would even say "wee" and want me to take his nappy off. Twice he caught me thinking he just wanted a new nappy and he wee'd on the bed as soon as i took his off. So early toilet awareness and discomfort might be something to think about.

[melchpeppi]

Ok, time for a little update - its the third night and our little guy is sleeping extremely well! I cannot believe it! The major changes have been -

- feed him up big time before bed, offer different foods until he wont eat any more
- lots of playing in the hour or so leading up to bed, family games - chasing etc, burn that energy out.
- being loud, some shrieking, yelling, singing - vocal energy, releasing the days tension.
- going for a drive (it was raining tonight) or a walk

His day sleep is longer now, and I noticed that he wakes around 4pm which was worrying me but... He just zonks out in no time, and when he wakes just needs a little cuddle now and back to sleep!

He is even happier in his temperament than before, although he is getting a little bit of an attitude :P

Fingers crossed it keeps up!

ETA - we will be taking him in to Chiro in the coming week or two (if we can get into the lady we want to see) just to check things over, he has had sleep issues for a verrrry long time, and I intuitively feel that it might be connected to his extremely fast second stage in labour.

[Rinelle]

Yay! Glad to hear you're experiencing some progress Mel.

[Hailstorm]

YAY!! that's wonderful!!! We do the energy burn here too when it was winter I'd go to youtube and find music videos for them to dance to but now the weather's warmer we have a jump on the trampoline :)
I hope things stay this good!

[emd]

That's great news! I firmly believe every child has different "sleep cues" that work for them, sometimes it just takes an awfully long time to find cues that work for them and the rest of the family can live with.

And hope things go well at the chiro. I figure we have intuition for a reason, so I try to follow mine.

[´*~·Meje·~*`]

great news!!

[Hailstorm]

[QUOTE=emd;19889]! I firmly believe every child has different "sleep cues" that work for them,
QUOTE]


ITA with this, I used to sing 'Beth' by KISS to Hailey when she was a baby and she would always go to sleep every tiem I will never forget the time I sang it to Ben...he just laughed at me :blink:2lol

[emd]

Kyls, I have this too! "You Are My Sunshine" works for all 3 kids, but I also used to sing "Bizarre Love Triangle" for Sophia and it worked, but Billy just puts his hand over my mouth like "stop mum!".

[Karena]

That's great news Mel.
Mel I think Taj may have taken Brock's sleep because he has now started waking up again, after being good for a week.

Harry would go to sleep to "go to sleep now"
Where as Brock needed "Mr Frog went walking" to go sleep.

[Rinelle]

The ants go marching work here, for both Ezri, and my little niece.

[melchpeppi]

Lola used to fall asleep to any song by The Killers but now loves 'Total Eclipse of the Heart' and well, Taj cops a bit of 'Total Eclipse' just cos he is going to sleep at the same time!!!

Pooey Karena :(. I hope Brock sorts himself out soon :(. Taj still wakes, dont get me wrong - he just doesnt cry and take 40mins to go back to sleep... But yeah - thats this week *eyeroll*

[michelle_j_r]

i am back to BFind Darcy overnight at the moment (a few nights in a row with a snotty nose and not eating well and i worried he'd be hungry so i fed him) and he is back to sleeping like crap! LOL! So for us obviously night weaning helps him to sleep better.

[emd]

This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of CIO. Because no matter what the sleep routine might be, I need the flexibility to vary it (eg when travelling, sick kids etc) and transition back to the routine without too much stress. Well OK, Jools is going to stress when I try and change her habits no matter what I do - but without having me having to stress too.

[cherish]

follow your intuition!!

[kate]

hi there, i know exactly how you feel.

my cosleeping baby woke 45 minutely. all night.
i kept going and going until 10 months of age, when...

I FELL ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL OF MY CAR WITH MY 2 CHILDREN. we were fine, but it could have been very different. there were a host of angels pushing my car back onto the road!

this had to stop. my baby was completely unable to get himself from 1 sleep cycle into another, and completely unable to put himself to sleep without help.
my friend had recently been to sleep school, but they all make you leave your baby with them for the first night or 2, and i just couldn't leave my baby with a stranger, let alone distressed and crying. i was going to have to do this myself.

i started the protocol she did, with the baby in our room - didn;t work
then moved baby into his own room, and did settling until quiet, but not asleep - (pantley always stresses this)
then left room, crying allowed for 2 minutes, in and settle, then out for 4 minutes etc up to 10 minutes

problem was we kept lingering with our hands on the baby, until he was just asleep, so he wasn't learning to do it on his own.
so now he was crying, but not learning.

last night, i was so exhausted, i could not get out of bed. my husband said, just let him cry.
he cried for less than 5 minutes, and slept through the rest of the night.
today, i was determined.
if he was grizzling, i didn't go in. very hard to do, but put himself to sleep in less than 10 minutes.
tonight, he put himself to sleep without crying.
i'm not punching the air just yet, but i am hopeful.

my baby was crying all the time. i don't actually think i was much comfort, as he often didn't seem to know i was event there, he was so distressed. THIS IS ALL FOR A BABY UNDER 1 THOUGH.

my first child was worse and only started sleeping through at 3 1/2.

FOR A 2 YEAR OLD
- if you are not coping with the current situation and are unhappy and angry during the day and night, your child needs to learn to put themselves to sleep with minimal or no help, and go from one sleep cycle to another.
- feed them up at tea time! lots of protein.
- a little bed by your bed is a great start. i didn't think it would work for our first, but he loved it.
- with our first, it was over attachment to the mother that was the problem. dad had to do his bedtime every night.
- you need to reduce your intervention at bedtime, to no help at all. this took me 3 years with our first, i tried every pantley suggestion. the only one that worked for us was telling the child you are leaving to "turn the stove off" or whatever- (something different every night) - and stress that you will be back very quickly, and do that. do this for months if necessary, leaving for longer periods each time,saying "i'll be back soon". sometimes they come looking for you, just take them back to bed. eventually, you go out and don't come back. pure joy

don't know if any of this helps, but if it's getting dangerous, you need to do something.
no matter how much it hurts, or how much it defies every belief you ever held about you baby.
do something, and get some help from mother, sister, friend, anyone you can.

lots of love!

[Nyree]

Hi Kate - welcome to IP. I see you just joined up today. It would be great if you could post an intro HERE (http://www.intuitiveparenting.com.au/forumdisplay.php?13-Introductions) so everyone can welcome you & get to know a bit more about what brought you to IP.

This is a very old thread, so I'm not sure if your advice is going to help the original poster.

What they teach at sleep schools has been shown to be counterproductive to proper brain/emotional development, and is really just modified CIO, but I do understand reaching the point of trying whatever you can. DD has never been one for sleep & she's nearly 6yo. Have you read much by James McKenna (http://nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/)? I think society places far too much emphasis on "good babies" & "sleeping through". What parents really need is more practical support to cope with the reality.....it takes a village and all! You are right that seeking help from family & friends is really important. I hope that you can find support so you can take care of your child's needs as well as your own :)

[Stardust]

Hi Kate and welcome!
Ny is correct with the research, but it is incredibly difficult trying to parent in today's society. Often, the support networks just are not there and so parents are left to do the best they can on very little sleep and with no help or break whatsoever.
Looking forward to getting to know you!

[jodiemiller]

Kate, I can relate to your dilemma with your first baby. My first was exactly the same and I became quite depressed from the sleep deprivation. Fortunately I never had a near-serious accident due to it (though I did have my fair share of 'incidents').

I don't believe there is such a thing as 'over-attachment' but I do believe that some babies are naturally anxious and clingy (and therefore need additional reassurance at tired times, hungry times, routine-disrupted times). I also believe some babies are really sensitive to stimulation - and that possibly those non-settling babies fall into this category due to over-stimulation or over-activity.

I'm so glad to read of a situation where parents managed to solve their sleep dilemmas without resorting to 'sleep school', but I acknowledge the need for them. In many ways it seems like it's about helping parents understand how their babies sleep as much as it is about 'teaching' babies to sleep and I do think there is as much a need for that as there is a need to show parents the vast number of ways other cultures and societies achieve the same outcomes. We are lucky to have such choices. :)

[kate]

hi nyree
i just found this under "new posts", and didn't check the date
can you please tell me how to change my username?
thanks


Hi Kate - welcome to IP. I see you just joined up today. It would be great if you could post an intro HERE (http://www.intuitiveparenting.com.au/forumdisplay.php?13-Introductions) so everyone can welcome you & get to know a bit more about what brought you to IP.

This is a very old thread, so I'm not sure if your advice is going to help the original poster.

What they teach at sleep schools has been shown to be counterproductive to proper brain/emotional development, and is really just modified CIO, but I do understand reaching the point of trying whatever you can. DD has never been one for sleep & she's nearly 6yo. Have you read much by James McKenna (http://nd.edu/~jmckenn1/lab/)? I think society places far too much emphasis on "good babies" & "sleeping through". What parents really need is more practical support to cope with the reality.....it takes a village and all! You are right that seeking help from family & friends is really important. I hope that you can find support so you can take care of your child's needs as well as your own :)

[michelle_j_r]

Kate, I'll PM you.